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jakubkonecki t1_j3b7sv8 wrote

Since the OP haven't provided sources and explanations in the comments, here we go:

Therapeutic index isn't the same as toxicity. It describes how easy it is to 'overdose' and and used to measure how safe a drug is in terms of dosage.

What is doesn't describe is how much damage a drug can make to a body, how severe side-effects may be or how quickly you can become dependent on the drug.

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theggman_ OP t1_j3bd3vk wrote

dude i've done the comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/10532eh/oc_estimated_toxicity_of_various_common_drugs/j38gbe3?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3

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jakubkonecki t1_j3bebw8 wrote

Dude, I can't see it at all. Clicking on your link takes me to "Wow, so empty" page.

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theggman_ OP t1_j3bgrqp wrote

i've reposted the comment and deleted the original lmk if you see it now

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jakubkonecki t1_j3bgy02 wrote

Nope. I can only see 4 top-level comments, including mine.

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theggman_ OP t1_j3bniya wrote

im confused, wtf

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jakubkonecki t1_j3bo8o5 wrote

Have you actually posted the comment? Or is it just sitting as a draft on your device?

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theggman_ OP t1_j3bono0 wrote

nono i've posted it, mods haven't removed my post so im assuming some people can see it. Still, i can't see it in incognito mode, im getting even more confused.

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jakubkonecki t1_j3boxfu wrote

If no-one but you can see your comment, is it really posted? Do you hear voices as well ;-)?

Don't worry, enjoy your weekend!

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HankRivera t1_j39ko5y wrote

Ketamine is safer if you drink green tea before use to minimize kidney/bladder damage.

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theggman_ OP t1_j3a05h2 wrote

cool, i mean it already seems pretty safe

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dsafklj t1_j3btr63 wrote

It's a bit odd to talk about the Therapeutic Index of something like ethanol. AFAIK ethanol isn't really used to treat anything (except perhaps ethanol addiction withdrawal or maybe some type of poisoning) so what's a 'effective treatment dose' (numerator of Therapeutic Index) of ethanol even mean? Feeling tipsy? buzzed? Wasted?

Also would have been interesting to include some medications with relatively narrow Therapeutic Indices. Acetaminophen/Tylenol and Warfarin/Coumadin come to mind as widely used medications with quite narrow Therapeutic Indices.

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theggman_ OP t1_j3buezd wrote

in this case i estimated the ED50 as getting high (not dunk off your mind, just enough to see significant activity), i know there are other drugs that have narrow therapeutic indexes but this was intended to be a review of commonly used recreational substances

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Head__Honcho t1_j39i6ly wrote

Is ethanol basically just all alcohol?

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eddy_talon t1_j3a2jvc wrote

Yes. Ethanol is a flammable, colorless, slightly toxic chemical compound, and is best known as the alcohol found in alcoholic beverages. In common usage, it is often referred to simply as alcohol.

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theggman_ OP t1_j3bvam0 wrote

reddit seems to delete my comments with sources and explanation, im going crazy

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theggman_ OP t1_j3bvgyb wrote

this are the sources: pdfhost dot io/v/Tdx47N5.G_TI_of_various_drugs

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lbs21 t1_j3cl3bg wrote

Thanks for posting the source. Weird that you're having trouble posting links, though. Regardless, I was hoping you might be able to help me find the info inside of a source. I was surprised to see that the TI of fentanyl was 7x that of alcohol (given the fear mongering), and I couldn't find the ED-50 on the DEA's website. It's possible I missed it - could you identify the paragraph on the DEA's website that talks about the ED-50 of fentanyl? I'm kind of surprised they'd give out that info, to be honest.

I noticed that the ED-50 of fentanyl was italicized - does that mean it is perhaps not listed in the source provided?

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theggman_ OP t1_j3cmu34 wrote

oh yeah i forgot to add, i have taken most of the active doses from psychonaut wiki.
Whilst it is obviously not a reputable source, they usually have pretty accurate information and finding reputable source for recreational doses is pretty hard

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lbs21 t1_j3cpzve wrote

That's very relevant and important information; good to know. Thank you for your prompt reply.

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lbs21 t1_j3clqmk wrote

I thought this might be it, but it doesn't match the data - FDA says fentanyl is about 100x more potent than morphene. Assuming this matches the ED (a big assumption), the ED of fentanyl would be .0024 mg/kg (or 1/100th of morphene), and the TI to be 1.25. But such a low TI can't be right... can it?

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Yahallo139 t1_j3ak89h wrote

Caffaine is less harmful than LSD?

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theggman_ OP t1_j3bde5u wrote

it's easier to overdose on it (it's still incredibly hard)

edit: i've read your comment wrong lol, you can overdose more easily on caffeine, lsd is completely bodily safe.

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theggman_ OP t1_j3bgp87 wrote

What is a therapeutic index (TI for short):

TI is a way of gauging a substance toxicity. It can be calculated in two different ways:

  • LD50 / ED50
  • TD50 / ED50

LD50: lethal dose in 50% of the test population

ED50: dose to achieve desired effects (in this case experiencing pyschoactivity) in 50% of the test population

TD50: dose to experience toxic effect in 50% of the test population

​

In this case all the values are calculated using the first method.

Keep in mind that the substances used are pure and in a lab environment.

Addressing inaccuracies:

As you might imagine calculating the TI of a given substance for humans is pretty hard, this data is based on animal studies and estimates based on death reports, so it might not be incredibly accurate. Also the therapeutic index calculated this way doen't directly measure how toxic a substance is for your body, although a broad therapeutic index generally implies a less toxic substance.

(?): since it's unknown if these substances can cause death in humans it's really hard to calculate their TI

(*): LD50 are all over the place for this substances, this is the best i could find.

Sources: https://pdfhost.io/v/Tdx47N5.G_TI_of_various_drugs

Tool: google sheets

if you find more accurate sources please link them in the comment's

edit: some clarifications

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theggman_ OP t1_j3bvnqq wrote

What is a therapeutic index (TI for short):

TI is a way of gauging a substance toxicity. It can be calculated in two different ways:

  • LD50 / ED50
  • TD50 / ED50

LD50: lethal dose in 50% of the test population

ED50: dose to achieve desired effects (in this case experiencing pyschoactivity) in 50% of the test population

TD50: dose to experience toxic effect in 50% of the test population

​

In this case all the values are calculated using the first method.

Keep in mind that the substances used are pure and in a lab environment.

Addressing inaccuracies:

As you might imagine calculating the TI of a given substance for humans is pretty hard, this data is based on animal studies and estimates based on death reports, so it might not be incredibly accurate. Also the therapeutic index calculated this way doen't directly measure how toxic a substance is for your body, although a broad therapeutic index generally implies a less toxic substance.

(?): since it's unknown if these substances can cause death in humans it's really hard to calculate their TI

(*): LD50 are all over the place for this substances, this is the best i could find.

Sources: pdfhost [dot] io/v/Tdx47N5.G_TI_of_various_drugs

Tool: google sheets

if you find more accurate sources please link them in the comment's

edit: some clarifications

1