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shialebeefe t1_j0i2ouq wrote

Would be interesting to see stats on how many children have a mother and no father and vice versa. Trying to establish if women are more likely to be abusive or if the numbers are comparable when you factor in the quantity of absent fathers.

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alexja21 t1_j0i3wfp wrote

Excellent point. US courts heavily favor giving the mother custody of the children, and there are still lots of stay-at-home moms. Children are simply around their mother more often than the father.

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katcheechuu t1_j0i7fsa wrote

Not to be rude, but I see people repeating this time and time again with only anecdotal evidence. Do US courts actually “heavily favor” the mother? Is this something we’ve just accepted as fact because it’s repeated by so many people?

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Not_that_wire OP t1_j0j9x31 wrote

Not at all anecdotal. Quantitatively evident. It's gov't data from the US. You can examine the data and the methodology and even the data to have a go at it for your own peace of mind.

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**Definitely hard facts here. No cultural wishy-washy perceptions or anecdotes - just gov't processing data. **

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Tardigrade_Disco t1_j0j9rln wrote

The US family courts heavily favor awarding majority custody to the person the child is most familiar with. In the United States, it's very common that after birth, a wife will stop working and stay home to raise the child. So when you have a kid that see's one parent every waking hour and the other only a few hours a day, the child will obviously have a stronger bond to the stay at home parent, which is usually the mother. So of course, that's who the court will award custody to because it's who the child has the strongest bond with. The court doesn't care that the mom is unemployed, that's why there is alimony and child support. In the few instances of the father being the stay at home parent, it's almost 100% that the dad is awarded majority custody. People only look at the outcomes of family court and never consider the other factors leading up to the final judgement.

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Not_that_wire OP t1_j0ksiat wrote

Can't concur with your analysis. The bias was part of legal guidance to judges called "Tender Years Doctrine".

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Tardigrade_Disco t1_j0kuja4 wrote

> The bias was part of legal guidance to judges called "Tender Years Doctrine".

"Was" being the operative word. Decades ago. The fact that you overlooked the relevant point that men in stay at home parent roles usually are awarded custody is a bit disingenuous. You don't have to "concur" with my analysis because it's not an analysis, it's a fact written in legal precedent and observed regularly. So not really a debatable topic...

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Not_that_wire OP t1_j0kw10m wrote

I'm just daylighting abusers of children, starting with the most likely to harm.

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Schadrach t1_j0loclw wrote

>"Was" being the operative word.

...and it was replaced with "whatever the judge thinks is best". For judges that were either trained under "tender years" or grew up in the environment created by it. The social inertia of tender years extends beyond it being formally ended.

But then, there's notable opposition to the very idea of not favoring mother's - Kentucky passed a law a couple of years ago requiring judges to start from a position that equal custody is best unless there's a good reason otherwise. This was heavily fought, significantly by feminist groups who described supporters as the "abusers lobby", as in their mind the only reason a man would want significant custody of his children is to use them as a means to continue abusing their mother. The law passing was considered a big win by men's rights supporters specifically because it reduced bias in family courts.

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katcheechuu t1_j0luzyq wrote

Yes - I agree with most of what you said here. I have done the research myself and asked the question to provoke thought in people who repeat the “courts” statement.

Wouldn’t a more accurate statement be that “US society favors the mother”?

There is heavy implication in saying “US courts heavily favor the mother” … Yet the majority of custody decisions are decided without court rulings? But one could argue that fathers don’t try because they’ve heard that courts heavily favors mothers. Perhaps this is indicative of how the average person does not understand how the legal process works.

Maybe the statement should be “the courts favor the primary caretaker”? This is also a misleading oversimplification as most courts favor both parents being involved in a child’s life.

Some people would say that it’s just words - but all word choices have implications and most people involved in society, whether they admit it or not, pick up on those implications.

For example: the troll below saying that men are second class citizens. Or the OP coming to the conclusion that mothers are more abusive based off of raw data without interpretation. The wording of their data certainly implies this. I argue that the only useful conclusions from this data set is that : child abuse sadly still exists & child abuse is commonly committed by those with opportunity. Neither of these conclusions are ground-breaking.

I’ve enjoyed your objective responses. Thank you for the discussion.

P.S. - I would love to see a Water Bear Disco. Please link video.

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Shitpostradamus t1_j0kxqc4 wrote

It’s accepted as fact because it absolutely is fact. Men are second class citizens when it comes to rights to their children

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ozbug t1_j0nchyx wrote

It's statistically true that women are more likely than men to be awarded custody. However, it is also true that women are more likely than men to ask for custody, which is primarily responsible for that statistic. In contested cases, the father is awarded custody more than half the time. Obviously there are many gendered factors that likely come into play in a lot of court cases, but the idea that men are fighting that much of an uphill battle for custody is a myth.

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Not_that_wire OP t1_j0i4dyu wrote

If you're on this sub, you'll probably like Statista. I'd recommend you sign up, it's free for basic functions. You should be able to download a spreadsheet and have go... but we might have different hobbies 🤓😎😅

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Beginning-Rip-7458 t1_j0jnpvi wrote

Agreed. You could label this chart “who is a child with most frequently “ and the results would be about the same with the exception of childcare workers.

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CodeEast t1_j0ibgvf wrote

Fathers are more likely than mothers to be active abusers, mothers are more likely to be passive abusers (neglect). Neglect is a slippery slope. Neglect is not a judgment based on the quality of life of the mother. But if her life is shit and filled with abuse, poverty, drugs, homelessness, mental illness, etc, then the quality of life of the child is going to be shit as well as a by-product.

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Sininenn t1_j0iiyti wrote

The exact same thing can be said about fathers too.

Functioning, fulfilled and happy people do not abuse their children.

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Not_that_wire OP t1_j0ja1s2 wrote

Can you point to credible data for that, please? Doesn't matter what country as long as the sample size is over 200.

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CodeEast t1_j0jgytl wrote

https://aifs.gov.au/resources/policy-and-practice-papers/who-abuses-children

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Not_that_wire OP t1_j0ktynj wrote

Thanks. I work strictly with large-set open data. I don't do book report research as much of it is from a methological echo chamber. I let others debate that stuff.

Lots of synthesis of "existing literature" involving unrepresentative sample size and very, very laggy reporting.

I know in Canada, the government data science talent pool is extremely thin. Their output is known to be really slow and lumpy, generally using deprecated technologies.

In my country, we're still wrapping our heads around our indigenous genocide (in progress). The colonist thugs involved were teachers, social workers and bureaucrats. These have perpetuated lies for 200 yrs. It'll continue as long as we like mineral rights.

Despite federal open gov mandates, the Canadian data is but a trickle of molasses in winter.

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