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gyang333 t1_iy2ljzm wrote

Reply to comment by Major_Independence_6 in [OC] 'Big 4' accounting firms are PwC, Deloitte, KPMG, and EY - breaking down how they make money by giteam

Hard to do consistent terminology as the firms have different service line categorizations. For example, EY and KPMG terms Risk Advisory as "Consulting" while PwC terms Risk as Assurance, and Deloitte groups it in its own category. That's just one example. I think Financial Advisory is the same kind of inconsistency amongst the 4.

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Major_Independence_6 t1_iy2mflx wrote

Assurance is audit.

Advisory is consulting.

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gyang333 t1_iy2mt78 wrote

I know that. But look at the Deloitte breakouts. There's Risk Advisory, Financial Advisory, and also Consulting. Deloitte breaks it out differently than the other 3 do. Financial Advisory, is known as FAAS at EY - Financial Accounting Advisory Services but it's a joint venture between Assurance and Consulting and the revenue is split between the two service lines at EY, while at D it's its own category.

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Major_Independence_6 t1_iy3r3b8 wrote

I think the bigger takeaway is that this chart is useless because there’s no real world application for any of the data. Revenue doesn’t tell a story. We all know that 4 firms have an oligopoly, collude on billing rates, don’t need to compete with one another, have barriers to entry, and the government protects them.

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uberseed t1_iy3t47o wrote

You have no idea what you're talking about. Anyone can create their own CPA firm and there are tons of those.

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Major_Independence_6 t1_iy3u8ck wrote

Oh right, I forgot about all those small firms that provide consulting, tax, and audit services to public companies, and sit on the boards of public companies. 🙄

Oligopolies are indefensible. I find it odd that anyone would argue that they don’t exist and/or defend them.

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uberseed t1_iy3wivc wrote

Yes you actually forgot about them. RSM and Grant Thornton and many others have public clients.

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Major_Independence_6 t1_iy4w545 wrote

To say that middle market firms compete with the big 4 for public company clients is laughable.

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LordFaquaad t1_iy4rlp4 wrote

Lol collude on billing rates. These firms absolutely compete with one another. It's some of the most competitive behavior I've seen in any industry.

The government does not protect them. Please read up on the PCAOB. No one is forcing their clients to work with them. Clients can always choose to change firms. Idk what you're talking about.

Also they're not really an ogilopolu since firms like GT and RSM also have large assurance practices

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Major_Independence_6 t1_iy593bc wrote

I’ve been on both sides for many years. Billing rates are basically the same across the big 4 and across middle market (RSM, GT, BDO, etc.). In my experience, billing rates were very rarely the deciding factor in winning a new audit client or selecting a firm for audit, tax or consulting.

RSM is the 5th largest firm worldwide, and is not even close to the top 4. The top is controlled by the 4 firms listed here, with little to no competition from other smaller firms.

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