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[deleted] t1_is6sllx wrote

Reply to comment by -Ch4s3- in Police Killings per Capita v Homicide Rate per Capita for Select OECD Countries [OC] by dr5c

Brazil is in general quite a useful metric of comparison for a country like the USA but Americans tend to compare themselves endlessly to countries like Germany or Denmark

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[deleted] t1_is6vxwe wrote

[deleted]

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pk10534 t1_is72kx8 wrote

Idk, why is GDP per capita the only metric that should be used to group countries? The US has far more in common with Brazil and Mexico in terms of history, religion, geography, diversity, former colonial status, etc than it does with Belgium or Norway. Because Brazil is poorer, it doesn’t make sense to compare two large, diverse countries with similar histories of slavery and colonization with hundreds of millions of people, but it does make sense to compare the US to a country like Luxembourg, a small affluent, homogenous European nation with fewer people than Indianapolis? Or Norway, which has half the population of Los Angeles county and practically no resemblance to the US in anything but income?

I grow so weary of these weird excuses where apparently “developing” nations (which, I will point out, is a totally arbitrary term) are too dysfunctional or anarchic to be compared to “civilized” European/North American countries. I just don’t buy that.

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thebestoflimes t1_is765z3 wrote

Poor communities within countries will generally have much higher rates of violent crime and the same holds true for countries as well. The USA is consistently a heavy outlier when compared to other very wealthy countries in terms of healthcare, imprisonment, violent crime, etc.

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Siglet84 t1_is776sp wrote

The USA is like a giant Germany with a bunch of brazils tucked inside of it. If you’re reasonably wealthy, you aren’t really affected by crime of criminals cops. If you’re poor, crime and criminal cops are a daily part of life.

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-Ch4s3- t1_is86xlq wrote

That’s the case in Brazil as well. Wealthy Brazilians are constantly in NYC and Miami, speak perfect English, send their children to boarding school, and vacation in Europe.

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Duncan-McCawkiner t1_is8ie6c wrote

I wouldn’t even say reasonably wealthy. I’d say just not completely impoverished. You can be relatively poor and live in very safe rural/suburban communities in the US. It’s people living in areas of high poverty where you’re dealing with violent crime and police corruption daily. Although I’d argue there’s a fair share of police corruption in the US even within the safe wealthy communities just low risk of being shot by them for no reason and even then that still only really applies if you’re white.

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RajaSonu t1_is95gqy wrote

Police being placed in school and changing school policies means that wealthier Americans are beginning to have more interactions with cops then before. Now students are getting arrested for behavior that previously got them suspended.

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pk10534 t1_is7auwq wrote

I don’t dispute any of that, my point was solely that it doesn’t make any more sense to compare the US to Lichtenstein or Denmark than it does to compare the US to Brazil. Wealth shouldn’t be the only factor we look at.

For instance: Mexico is a high income economy who also broke away from a European power and is a democratic, free market nation. Mexico’s GNI is actually closer to Spain’s than Spain’s is to the US. If it’s fair game to compare spain to the US (which has a GNI $40,000 dollars higher than spain), why is it not for Mexico?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GNI_(nominal)_per_capita

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RambunctiousRabbi t1_isaq9x2 wrote

Youre wayyyy too smart yo be arguing this on Reddit.

But you’re 100% correct in my eyes

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100dylan99 t1_is7dv1r wrote

> The USA is consistently a heavy outlier when compared to other very wealthy countries in terms of healthcare, imprisonment, violent crime, etc.

That's because other "developed countries" are Europe, Arabia, and a few places in Asia.

The Americas are more violent than just about everywhere in Eurasia, hell, even Africa when you adjust for GDP (outside of South Africa, which is in many ways more like LatAm than the rest of Africa anyway. The US has a very minor version of the problem Brazil has. It is not doing very poorly at the job that France is doing.

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Spambot0 t1_is78f5u wrote

Every time a selected group of countries is used, it's because they give the result the person wants, and the ensemble of all countries doesn't.

It's P-hacking 101.

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TurtleFisher54 t1_is76h2n wrote

For 1 money is the main divider in the world so it makes sense to use it as a baseline for comparison. You make good points tho it is not the end all be all.

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pk10534 t1_is79rax wrote

I totally agree income is part of the puzzle, I just can’t stand when it seems like people dismiss certain nations from comparison to the US because it would hurt their narrative (for instance, when the Washington post made a graph for violent crime in OECD countries to talk about violence in the US, but left out Mexico).

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-Ch4s3- t1_is87btg wrote

For sure. Talk to Amy middle class person from Monterey and they are more culturally like people in the US than almost any European.

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forteborte t1_is7mjrm wrote

also communities in general, anything west of the mississippi is stuco and doesn’t have mom and pop businesses or community to fall on.

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[deleted] t1_is6x7iw wrote

It's much poorer but it's very similar in a lot of ways, too

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-Ch4s3- t1_is86oqc wrote

That isn’t the reason I think the comparison is apt. Both the US and Brazil were former colonies of European powers made independent by popular revolt. They both have a legacy of slavery. Both have bursts of immigration around 1900 from the old world. Both have very large territories. Both have substantial minerals resources. Both have checkered histories with indigenous peoples. Both are multiethnic and multiracial democracies. Both have large minorities of Spanish speakers. Brazil and the US have more in common historically and structurally than the US and Germany.

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aroboteer t1_is96ipg wrote

Wealth really has nothing to do with this because it's more a culture issue than a wealth issue. Much of Europe left slavery to their colonies early in the slave trade, and poc are much less prevalent in eu as a whole, so they don't have to deal with as much prejudice or interracial/intercultural issues that many American countries deal with. Despite the cultural diversity in some western eu countries in terms of culture represented, the overall ratio of white to poc is much higher than in American countries.

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Aelig_ t1_is9um7g wrote

If GDP per capita was a good metric for anything the USA would be a paradise, yet sane people would rather live in Germany than the US given the choice.

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Fun_Designer7898 t1_isacssb wrote

Germans migrate to the US at 3 times the levels than vice versa, what are you on about

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Aelig_ t1_isaftwn wrote

Of course it's higher, it's incredibly difficult for an American to immigrate anywhere within Schengen while any educated German would be welcome to the US and could enjoy a decent standard of living due to their high salary. Doesn't mean the country isn't an absolute shithole for the lower classes compared to Germany.

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IncidentalIncidence t1_isby4ul wrote

>Of course it's higher, it's incredibly difficult for an American to immigrate anywhere within Schengen while any educated German would be welcome to the US and could enjoy a decent standard of living due to their high salary.

literally none of this is true. Schengen visas for Americans are pretty easy to get.

Hell, you can literally get a student visa to study in Germany for 300 euros a semester.

The requirements for Americans for Schengen visas aren't any different than they are for everyone else in the world (and more easily attainable for Americans than a lot of other countries in terms of higher education and work experience).

Conversely, it's a lot harder to immigrate to the US as a European, either for education or for work -- universities cost tens of thousands for foreign students, and H1-B jobs (skilled worker visas) are much more limited than the analog Schengen visas.

edit: replied and blocked? NICE

>You have no idea of what you're talking about but keep dreaming

I literally am an American holder of a Schengen residence permit you absolute muppet

>I live you have to literally prove to the ministry of labour that no candidate from the entire Schengen area could be found to fill your job application to let an American in.

You have to do that for every visa-sponsoring job in every country ever. You have to do that for all foreign (or in the Schengen area, non-EU) workers who don't already have a work permit; it has nothing to do with Americans. (And US companies also have to do that when they hire Europeans)

The difference being the Schengen countries give out a lot more of those permits than the US does H1-Bs, which are capped by law and decided by a lottery.

>Sure you can get in on a student visa but you'll have to leave after graduating so I wouldn't call that immigrating as you can't stay.

Having a degree from a German university lowers the requirements you need to get a permanent residence permit, lowers the requirements you need to apply for German citizenship, and grants you a grace period to stay in the country while you look for a job after you graduate.

The whole point of the freely available student visas is to encourage immigration.

>But given that you think living in a corrupt shithole without basic human decency is great I'd advice you stay there.

lmfao, cope more

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Aelig_ t1_isbyuof wrote

You have no idea of what you're talking about but keep dreaming. Where I live you have to literally prove to the ministry of labour that no candidate from the entire Schengen area could be found to fill your job application to let an American in. Sure you can get in on a student visa but you'll have to leave after graduating so I wouldn't call that immigrating as you can't stay.

This sort of rule is very common in Schengen countries.

But given that you think living in a corrupt shithole without basic human decency is great I'd advice you stay there. You're literally commenting on a thread about the vast over representation of people killed by the police against crime, and you still think it's a great place to live. We've all seen the videos about cops murdering your fellow citizens in broad daylight, and we're watching you do nothing about it year after year.

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AFatz t1_isbpiuo wrote

Tell that to my family who left Germany years ago to go to the US.

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-Ch4s3- t1_is6w2mw wrote

Yeah it’s the wrong comparison IMHO. It may be compelling to call the US a failed Europe, but it’s more correct to look at it as a very successful post-colonial democracy.

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Frank9567 t1_is98n3j wrote

I'd agree with the very successful part, but democracy is probably not quite accurate. It certainly has democratic elements, but the system incorporates a number of features, some unique like the electoral college, and systematic high corporate influence, and others not so unique like gerrymander and voter suppression, that make classing the US as a democracy is problematic.

That's NOT to criticise, because the US IS successful as a result of the system. It's just misleading to compare with democracies which don't have the unique non-democratic elements that the US does.

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-Ch4s3- t1_isa8j3k wrote

Being the first mover in designing a system has some draw backs. That said the system involves voting directly for a congress and a president, it’s more direct that some parliamentary systems.

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angrybirdseller t1_ise7kyv wrote

Parts of USA had one party rule the Deep south until the 1960s. Jim Crow was the rule.

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PaxNova t1_is7io0r wrote

Frankly, I think the best European comparison to the US would be... all of Europe. It's about the same size. similar resources, and about twice the population (which is still a lot, but better than a fourth the population like with the German example). It has varied terrains and densities as well. If you're going to compare individual Euro countries, compare them to states.

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Fun_Designer7898 t1_isaczcv wrote

Europe is a continent, how can anyone compare it to a country

If you want to compare individual european countries, compare them to actual countries

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PaxNova t1_isagcht wrote

You underestimate the amount of latitude individual states have. There's fifty of them in the US, and the laws that bind them are primarily economic ones. There are 44 countries in Europe, most of them bound through the EU for economic regulations.

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Fun_Designer7898 t1_isagewy wrote

State≠country

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knottheone t1_isaqcdi wrote

States in the US have almost as much agency over the lives of their citizens as the average country does and that's by design. The only things states aren't personally concerned with are outlined in the Constitution like national defense, international diplomacy, and minting of a common currency to name a few. Everything else is by default a states' rights concern as per the 10th amendment.

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PaxNova t1_isaq9ka wrote

... so? Why would that ruin the comparison?

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Fun_Designer7898 t1_isaqecr wrote

Because we are comparing countries

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PaxNova t1_isarhw3 wrote

Fair enough. Though I'll note that, unlike some European countries, police regulation is set at a state level, like in Germany or Switzerland (cantons). In France and Spain, the police are national. You're already lumping at least 50 different sets of regulation together just by using the US, which also muddles the data. Country-to-country is not a good comparison.

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anonsharksfan t1_is9c6n2 wrote

I like Australia as a comp, aside from the difference in population, it ticks most of the same boxes as the US in terms of culture, history, and demographics.

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