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mynameisnickromel t1_j3rczzz wrote

Mmmm idk bruh that thing seems to have wings so that can't be a balrog of morgoth.

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cut-the-cords t1_j3rf2vg wrote

"The description of the Balrog in Moria from "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm", in the fifth chapter of The Fellowship of the Ring raised the question of whether Balrogs were winged. There are two references in this chapter:

"His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings."

"...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall..."

Tolkien's language leaves some room for speculation. The first quote seems to describe a Balrog covered in shadow that appears winglike, and is later 'spread.' However, the second quoted passage seems to indicate that this Balrog had actual wings that were spread from wall to wall."

Apparently there seems to be some differing opinions.

Source

Huh I love lord of the rings but I never knew about this divided opinion.

Regardless the art is still cool as fuck.

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mynameisnickromel t1_j3rglw1 wrote

Yeah it's kind of an inside joke about the interpretation of the writing. Inconsequential, and sometimes inflammatory.

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cut-the-cords t1_j3rh6go wrote

Well thank you for the insight I have never thought about it and made for an interesting read.

And I am sorry you're getting downvoted 🙁

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zeke235 t1_j3tvo0t wrote

Could a Balrog's wings be made of coalesced shadow?

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cut-the-cords t1_j3tw84r wrote

Anything is possible with the wonderfully creative mind of J.R.R Tolkien.

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[deleted] t1_j3u2icw wrote

[deleted]

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cut-the-cords t1_j3u4knu wrote

I shall remain Impartial and just enjoy the books for what they are.

If I am brutally honest with you it interested me about the debate existing but the actual debate isn't something I really have an opinion on.

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Bojikthe8th t1_j3rs6yg wrote

What do you mean? Balrogs have wings in the books and movies.

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droidtron t1_j3rybl0 wrote

They also have a dumptruck ass but that's in the appendices.

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Bojikthe8th t1_j3s4xke wrote

I'm surprised Durin's Bane didn't get that ｔｈiｃｃ cake wedged in those narrow caves as he fell.

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SupaKoopa714 t1_j3t942d wrote

They're also prone to early onset dementia, according to The Silmarillion.

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mynameisnickromel t1_j3rsfjh wrote

https://gprivate.com/62ucf

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Bojikthe8th t1_j3rt11e wrote

So the evidence against Balrogs not having wings that they're specifically stated to have is that they sometimes fall (after being injured or being in an enclosed space)?

Plus, if it's unclear, then why do you assume that they don't in spite of contrary evidence that they do?

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Wanderer_Falki t1_j3svqh7 wrote

I wouldn't say "no Balrog ever could possibly have had wings", but rather "Tolkien never described any Balrog having wings".

The only mention of wings on Durin's bane is an obviously non-physical simile comparing the movement of the expanding shadow at a specific moment to the general shape of wings, and the simile becomes a metaphor in the next paragraph for greater effect (and to avoid repeating the simile, which would be quite tedious). Tolkien uses the same process in the Akallabêth (first, the clouds are described as being shaped like eagles; then, the same clouds are referred to as "the eagles").

Now if we were to consider those wings as physical, there would be a huge problem in how Tolkien describes distances and measurements in the Balrog scenes. You'd have to imagine a ~5m tall Balrog (uppermost estimation) with a ~50m wingspan (lowest estimation), making the Balrog's visible shape composed of around 90% wings 10% body? And yet Tolkien's descriptions of Balrogs fully concentrates on those 10%, consistently calling them humanoids/of human shape, with the mention of wings left vague at most. Not to mention the obvious conclusion that wings that big would be the worst, most impractical thing ever.

Also, as far as I remember the description of the Balrog being able to go out of the chamber of Mazarbul, you'd need that Balrog and its 50m wingspan to go through a doorway small enough that a normal man can easily push the door closed in one movement, as shown during the earlier battle. When you pay attention to the description, what Tolkien focuses on, and the measurements, Durin's Bane being winged doesn't make any sense, and it's the reason why that debate only exists among fan (particularly Jackson fans) - all the scholars I've seen talking about the topic are unanimous that there's no actual wing being described.

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Bojikthe8th t1_j3tacfe wrote

Well the Balrogs traveled from Angband to Lammoth pretty quickly to rescue Morgoth without wings. I guess Ungoliant must've waited a few weeks for them to arrive so she could be driven off.

Joking aside, this is probably one of those many inconsistencies that exist in the series, like how Tolkien originally described armies of Balrogs then later says that there were no more than seven.

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TheBerraExperience t1_j3ru0hz wrote

Because LOTR isn't the first time Balrogs are mentioned, and in no other instance in the legendarium do they have wings, much less wings so big as to cover the entire surface of a wide chamber of Moria.

It would have been very advantageous for Balrogs to have flight, yet they never fly. It is much more likely that the passage in LOTR refers to the darkness emanating from the Balrog filling the chamber. This would be consistent with other evil creatures in this world, of whom darkness emanates and envelops those around them.

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Bojikthe8th t1_j3rupdz wrote

> and in no other instance in the legendarium do they have wings,

It doesn't say they don't have wings though.

>It would have been very advantageous for Balrogs to have flight, yet they never fly.

It never says they don't though.

>It is much more likely that the passage in LOTR refers to the darkness emanating from the Balrog filling the chamber. This would be consistent with other evil creatures in this world, of whom darkness emanates and envelops those around them.

No other creatures have their darkness described as wings. Whenever other creatures are mentioned to have wings (like dragons) they're still assumed to have wings.

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pasher5620 t1_j3to1tc wrote

I get where everyone is coming from and I agree I like the interpretation of them to have wings, but let’s be real here. The text is very clearly stating that the darkness that the Balrog creates is similar to outstretched wings blocking the light. It’s not saying the demon itself literally has wings, just using a simile to describe it. I’ve always interpreted it similar to how Gandalf creates shadows when confronting Bilbo about the ring in the movie. He’s not actually blocking out the light with his body, his presence and power are absorbing the light to appear more threatening.

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Bojikthe8th t1_j3rvh63 wrote

> It would have been very advantageous for Balrogs to have flight, yet they never fly.

They might've flown when they rescued Morgoth from Ungoliant, seeing as they were still very far from Angband when they heard his cries and still managed to fend of Ungoliant before she could take the Silmarils.

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