DeffNotTom t1_j27ceeo wrote
Reply to comment by Squish_the_android in How do we feel about dogs in coffee shops? by korkvid
But how do you know whether or not it's an actual service animal? Do you think your average barista is qualified to make that determination? Should disabled people have to justify their service animal's existence to an 18 year old cashier every time they walk into a business? Like.. I get your point, but in practice, how do you enforce that?
coldsnap123 t1_j27d23x wrote
Because the dog will be wearing a vest that says service animal. Also, working dogs do not behave like pets.
ijustlikebeingnosy t1_j28rzd3 wrote
Wearing a vest is not a requirement.
coldsnap123 t1_j28ucaa wrote
It should be.
ijustlikebeingnosy t1_j28uqrw wrote
No it shouldn’t.
coldsnap123 t1_j28vdq3 wrote
There’s no good reason to why it shouldn’t be mandatory. That’s just an open invitation to the world to mess with a working dog.
ijustlikebeingnosy t1_j28wg03 wrote
Plenty of reasons why it shouldn’t. And no one should be messing with anyone’s dog.
ETA: I think it’s comical the downvoting when I said no one should mess with anyone’s dog.
coldsnap123 t1_j28wp7o wrote
That may be true, but they’re not good enough reasons.
ijustlikebeingnosy t1_j28zhil wrote
In your personal opinion.
TaffyLee__Fubbins t1_j27n5zh wrote
This is not true. Service dogs are not required to wear any identification.
Dontleave t1_j28nhe0 wrote
Then if you don’t want them to west a vest be prepared to answer 2 questions about the dog.
TaffyLee__Fubbins t1_j29cz9j wrote
I don’t have a service dog so my dog does not come with me places. But yeah, the questions are fine. Actually most of the people I’ve seen with fake service dogs have a vest and a fake certificate. Lol. Most real service dogs I know don’t have a vest. They just do their job quietly and politely.
TaffyLee__Fubbins t1_j29d0zr wrote
A vest doesn’t prevent questions.
coldsnap123 t1_j28ub8o wrote
They should.
TaffyLee__Fubbins t1_j29dc2v wrote
Write to the ADA then because the only current “documentation” you can get is through scams and I know a lot of shit people with fake service dogs who have these bullshit certificates and vests they bought off Etsy. There is no valid/official certification or gear to prove you have a real service dog and aren’t just trying to bring your pet to the coffee shop.
DeffNotTom t1_j27e6l3 wrote
I work in a hospital with disabled veterans, I see service dogs on a near daily basis. They don't have to wear a vest or any other identifying tags, and many people choose not to use them because of they don't want to advertise that they're disabled any more than they have to. Also, depending on what kind of task the service animal provides, they can, and do, still act like pets. And there are plenty of pet dogs who are highly trained and well behaved. There are no hard fast rules for service animal's other than being trained to perform a task(s) for a disabled person.
BeyondLions t1_j27kayp wrote
This is just false. My mom has a service dog that she had trained through TADSAW (Train a Dog, Save A Warrior) and the dog needs to focus on his/her task when ‘working’. And while service dogs can be all shapes and sizes, they must be distinguishable as a service animal, and they’re also required to have a certificate on them certifying they’re a service dog.
The issue is that the way the ADA is written prevents businesses from able to verify it’s a service dog, the only questions they’re allowed to ask is ‘Is this a service animal’ and ‘What tasks are they trained to perform?’, so a lot of people bring their personal pet in and just lie because we can’t ask for certification.
TaffyLee__Fubbins t1_j27n9qs wrote
No, THIS is false. There is no certificate - all the ones online are scams to steal your money. And there is no requirement for identification.
Businesses can ask two questions - is this a service dog? And what tasks are they trained to perform?
Darklighter10 t1_j282evz wrote
Sorry man, pretty much all of what you just said is false, and easily fact checked as such.
ijustlikebeingnosy t1_j28s5mf wrote
All of this is false. There is no certification required. Know your facts before you spew.
DeffNotTom t1_j27n4hs wrote
Most of what you just said was entirely wrong. But thanks to someone else telling me I was wrong, I already have the page pulled up. From the ADA website
"Q5. Does the ADA require service animals to be professionally trained?
A. No. People with disabilities have the right to train the dog themselves and are not required to use a professional service dog training program.
Q8. Do service animals have to wear a vest or patch or special harness identifying them as service animals?
A. No. The ADA does not require service animals to wear a vest, ID tag, or specific harness.
Q17. Does the ADA require that service animals be certified as service animals?
A. No. Covered entities may not require documentation, such as proof that the animal has been certified, trained, or licensed as a service animal, as a condition for entry.
There are individuals and organizations that sell service animal certification or registration documents online. These documents do not convey any rights under the ADA and the Department of Justice does not recognize them as proof that the dog is a service animal."
https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-faqs/
I agree, people skirt the law. That is literally my point. The law is nearly unenforceable because protecting the rights of disabled people is the more important issue. I'd rather have solid protection for disabled people's rights, even if that means people abuse that protection to beat other laws.
Acceptable_Tourist_4 t1_j27e71v wrote
The ADA has specific questions that are appropriate to be asked if a business is trying to determine if an animal is a service animal. These questions are designed to protect the privacy and dignity of the disabled, and anyone with a service animal is well aware of these questions, and how to answer them.
Those questions are: Is your dog a service animal trained to assist with a disability? (And) What work or task is the animal trained to perform?”
As mentioned disabled people are well rehearsed in these questions, and others will look like a deer caught in the headlight as they try to stammer out answers. Even if someone confidently said “it’s trained to comfort me if/when I panic”, the answer is No because even emotional support animals are not recognized under the ADA guidelines.
DeffNotTom t1_j27evu3 wrote
"it's trained to comfort me when I panic" can be 100% valid under the ADA. If the dog/animal is trained to recognize panic attacks, anxiety, whatever, and trained for a specific response that mitigates that, they qualify.
Acceptable_Tourist_4 t1_j27f8ty wrote
It’s not an opinion, it’s not a gray area, emotional support animals are not recognized by the ADA as service animals and don’t need to be accommodated as such. Don’t be a contrarian just to make a point. It is what it is.
DeffNotTom t1_j27fhnw wrote
You're right. It's not a gray area. Psychiatric service animal's are separate from emotional support animals. If they can identify a mental health disability, and are trained to perform a task, they are protected under the ADA. That includes anxiety/panic attacks. This isn't an opinion. That is the law. I'm sure it's on the ADA website somewhere.
Acceptable_Tourist_4 t1_j27fyk1 wrote
DeffNotTom t1_j27gf9r wrote
Question 4
Q4. If someone's dog calms them when having an anxiety attack, does this qualify it as a service animal?
A. It depends. The ADA makes a distinction between psychiatric service animals and emotional support animals. If the dog has been trained to sense that an anxiety attack is about to happen and take a specific action to help avoid the attack or lessen its impact, that would qualify as a service animal. However, if the dog’s mere presence provides comfort, that would not be considered a service animal under the ADA.
https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-faqs/
I'm not being contrarian for the fuck of it. The law is unenforceable because ADA protections are pretty bomb proof. The penalty risk of violating someone's disability rights generally outweighs the risk of some annoyed customers.
I know a veteran who carries a Yorkie in a purse. It's trained in epileptic and low blood sugar alert. Turns out Yorkies as a breed are REALLY good at it. A business owner could lose their whole livelihood by making an assumption about his dog.
SpindriftRascal t1_j28jzxg wrote
“A business owner could lose their whole livelihood….”
Only if the person with the dog overreacts, like those people who randomly go around suing over ADA compliance even when they have no intention of ever using the business. Being disabled doesn’t mean you have to be an asshole.
DeffNotTom t1_j28rcsj wrote
Don't discriminate against disabled people and you won't get sued 🤷🏻♂️
SpindriftRascal t1_j28sb28 wrote
It’s not that simple. There are people who make careers out of looking for ADA violations and suing. If they really cared about the issue itself, they’d discuss it first and try to get it remedied. Anyone who doesn’t try that is an asshole.
DeffNotTom t1_j28u7xv wrote
Ah yes. It should be up to disabled people to offer free ADA consulting to businesses discriminating against them. I see your point.
SpindriftRascal t1_j28v57o wrote
No, you don’t. I’m talking about people who don’t even try to use the business. They just go around as self-appointed ADA inspectors. They haven’t been victimized. They’re just assholes, rent-seeking.
DeffNotTom t1_j28woul wrote
Right. You don't think those people should be doing it because you believe they haven't been victimized. You want disabled people who have been victimized to do the heavy lifting.. What is it about your argument that you think I'm misinterpreting?
SpindriftRascal t1_j29ex42 wrote
I think people shouldn’t victimize each other. I think this means if someone victimizes a disabled person, it’s reasonable to make them pay for it. I think it is unreasonable to make random unassociated businesses pay for it, because that turns them into the victim.
[deleted] t1_j27frb5 wrote
[deleted]
Squish_the_android t1_j27d7s4 wrote
Leave it up to the managers.
They can ask:
Is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and what work or task has the dog been trained to perform?
If the dog misbehaves at all they can be asked to leave even if it is a service animal.
Just because a rule is difficult to enforce doesn't mean we should just throw out the rule.
DeffNotTom t1_j27epi7 wrote
Two questions that are easy to lie about, and most people don't bring misbehaving dogs into businesses. So what you're saying is, if you can lie, and your dog listens, it's good? I mean, I do agree, if someone has a shitty dog, make them leave. But outside of that, it's pretty much unenforceable.
Darklighter10 t1_j27jd51 wrote
It’s mostly honor system, but businesses are allowed to ask what the dogs trained purpose is. Even still, no one has to “prove” it, which is why fake service animals is such a problem.
However, I think there is a general misconception. Purely “emotional support” animals are NOT service animals, and do not have the same freedoms of entry.
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