Most dental offices support YES on Number 2. They say that it gives more benefits to patients, the focus is not them
Really good of them to take care of us. The result of good medical education that not only focuses on technicals, but on humans too
Let's vote YES on No 2
If you can't afford their recommended care because insurance isn't covering them, you're probably going to skip getting that care. They would be concerned about that from a billing perspective, and, if they're good dentists, because you're not receiving the care you need.
I paid over $4k out of pocket in the past 1.5 years to get a broken tooth and some wisdom teeth I had ignored for too long taken care of. Insurance only handled like $2k before they told me to get lost until the next billing year.
[deleted]
People won't go if they can't afford it. So far the only time I've seen a dentist in the last ten years was when I went to the students for free.
People with insurance that doesn't pay well don't get all the dental work done that they need, they just get the bare minimum. The more the insurance pays, the more work people will get done which means more money for the dentist.
I’m ok with dentists doing more work and therefore receiving more pay. Seems alright to me.
Fucked up that your teeth are considered “luxury bones”
Not quite sure why you’re being downvoted. Obviously it would be good for dentists if more money from every dollar in premiums were spent on dental care.
This would be fair if dentists were somehow underpaid. They are not, they never have been and they make most of their money on cosmetic stuff.
If dentists get paid more, that cost just gets shifted by the insurance companies onto consumers. The insurance company will not sacrifice at all, despite what the people behind this question would have you believe. The insurance industry literally doesn't care what dentists charge, as long as the customer is willing to pay the premiums.
who knows, im not saying that dentists shouldnt get paid but its pretty obvious they want it to pass because of that
Is it good for consumers though? I see zero reason to think it actually is.
Sure. More money will go toward claims. I suppose it’s also possible they could cut premiums but since that would hit total revenue I doubt it.
Yeah this regulation is more about curtailing excessive profiteering by the insurance companies, which dentists have no love for.
Dental insurance is a joke and has been for decades. I'm not saying dentists are saints either but insurance companies are basically scum.
A yes vote means changing the law so that dental insurance companies have to spend their money on paying for dental care, rather than just making huge profits off bloated premiums. It limits how much money the insurers can waste spend on administration costs.
This kind of law already exists for regular medical insurance. If they don't spend enough on care costs the difference is refunded back to the customers in the form of a small check.
So would that indirectly bring down the premiums of dental insurance? This seems like a no brainer
Yes. Dental care policy is often playing catch up with general medical care policy because it's a separate, smaller field.
This kind of policy has already been in force for regular health insurance, and I'm not aware of any serious criticism of the requirement. Seems an easy one to say "yes".
Doesn’t it require that a certain percentage go towards claims? They can’t increase their margins just by increasing premiums Sure they can make more revenue total by increasing premiums but the same is true without this change
Yeah, dentists are the ones who face it all. They run the insurances (Dental insurance is the biggest scam btw), and they get the flack when the insurance denies coverage. The patients probably more times than not, attack the dental staff instead of the insurance companies.
Plus, my dentist has stated I've needed crowns or root canals as mandatory treatment and insurance has been like "lol no that's cosmetic!" .... Bitch, you don't know what's necessary or cosmetic. If you are going to cover, trust the dentist!
Sounds like we need to support dentists then
Not necessarily. If the reimbursement for my root canal goes from 50% to 80% than the dentist still gets the same amount of money, it’s just less money coming out of my pocket. Also if it’s between insurance companies getting my money vs a small business owner like a dentist office, my votes on dentists 100%
Thank you for this explanation. What’s the argument for voting no here? Just curious.
Ivey always thought it was weird that if you break a toe you're covered but I'd you break a tooth it's not. America is fucking weird
You're absolutely right. If I pay the insurance $100 and they will refund to me anything they don't use below $80 how could I benefit?
Because it's not gonna happen. They have to spend 80% of all the premiums they collect on claims. How much you as an individual use is completely irrelevant.
Dentists will just charge the insurance companies more so any cost savings will evaporate.
It's just like when the US had a tax on corporations 79 years ago.
If the business (insurance company) doesn't provide services using 80% of the revenue they receive they lose out on that money and have to pay it back.
No idea.
I dunno, generic "regulation bad, markets are perfect" type logic. You'll have to ask someone else, if I had my way all these parasites would be [redacted TOS violating material]
I'm not seeing how this is going to help dentists negotiate better procedure rates with the insurers.
Most countries with universal health care exclude dental
The problem with dental insurance is its a low cost item, but there is still the overhead of health insurance, like billing premiums, paying claims, network development, online portal, etc. There is no way they can offer my $19.99 a month insurance plan with an 83% medical loss ratio, which means they will have to raise my insurance rates and spend more on care - well, I get all my care covered at 100%, so the only way to spend more is to give more to dentists. Insurance company doesn't care if this passes, they'll just raise rates to compensate, they make out even, I end up paying more each month, and dentists whose PAC is spending a boatload on this end up the winner with more money for the same work.
Let’s hope all of this will result in more cost transparency. I would vote for a law that requires dentists to publish rates for all procedures.
Dental insurance is a scam.
What are you talking about? How can you get coverage at $240 per year and actually get covered for cleanings, X-rays, and drill/fills?
Delta dentals publicly available tax return shows they spent 60% of premiums on patient care. Their ceo is paid 2.5x what the ceo of Harvard pilgrim earns all while managing a company about a third of the size. It’s a cash grab by insurance companies
You can’t ask?
I don't know what to tell you about how, I just shopped around and got the best deal for me. I never had dental insurance before, but moving to MA, dentists were so expensive, it's cheaper to buy the dental insurance than it was to pay cash. If this passes, I doubt that will be the case and I will see my premium go up.
Everyone seems to think if they have a limit to their MCR the premium will go down to fit the MCR, rather than the premium going up so their current operating costs are met. Delta and others aren't magically going to make less money in MA, they are going to raise rates to continue to make the same amount, and just pay dentists more to compensate.
Exactly, there is a reason the dentists PAC is supporting it, premiums are likely to go up so their expenses meet the Medical Expense Ratio, and dentists will be the ones profiting, no change to the insurance company, just more cost to you and me.
Of course you can ask. But I’d like to choose between a couple different dentists before I’m in their office. I also find that I’m met with a blank expression when I ask him how much something will cost. It’s almost like I’m being rude by asking how much something I am buying will cost. I find many of these dentists and their staff to be incredibly obtuse.
Dentists are always wondering why people don’t wanna go to the dentist. Sure maybe it’s the pain, but maybe it’s that people get raked over the coals and every last dollar in their wallet gets sucked out by some greedy dentist.
I work in retail, and people are always asking me how much my products cost. I don’t complain. I tell them straight up. Who gives a shit. Some will and some won’t. But I’m tired of these people trying to hide how much it costs. You experience at the car dealership too. Everyone hates going to the car dealership also. And that’s why.
It's not a scam, there's just no way they can possibly price it at a rate that would cover "everything" without charging an excessive amount of money to people who just need some cleanings and x rays.
The only thing dentists worry about is getting paid. They love this ballot question because it's more "convenient" to have the insurance companies pay them instead of making patients pay more
Look at anyone from England's teeth for an example.
Hehe. Dental insurance CEOs based in MA will lose so much money if Questions 1 and 2 pass.
The long and short of that is just that it depends. Specialist care will generally cost more, some teeth benefit from certain types of filings/procedure versus others, it also depends on what fees are contracted by insurance, in network vs out, and that's not even counting the different ways each dentist might approach a problem. One doc may suggest sometimes herculean effort to save a tooth, another may think it's not worth the investment of time and money. It can be confusing and misleading to quote prices online or over the phone (but staff will do it if you know the specifics). Dentists need to evaluate teeth in person before they can quote you accurate numbers though and I can't tell you how many people have the wrong idea of what they think they need.
As far as the astronomical cost of dental care (really Healthcare in general), that's a convo for another day
I've actually heard that English people have fairly healthy teeth they just don't focus on making them all look pearly white and perfectly straight like Americans do. If your teeth are healthy and doing their job they see no reason to fuck with them more than necessary.
Makes sense. I was just parroting a stereotype
But, that's the point. Premiums wouldn't go down. You think dental insurances will want to make less money? That is soo cute!
Two concerns I have:
voting yes means insurance plans have incentive to pay more for procedures so they can charge patients more and collect more premiums; and
the lack of reporting in the system is terrible and more reporting is better imo.
2 outweighs 1 for me. But both are concerns.
Your insurance premiums will go up if 2 passes. It would require insurers to spend 83% on care, but the vast majority of insurers need to spend more than 17% on administrative and other costs to keep the company running. If you think they'll conduct intensive audits of their non-care-related costs to make sure care spending reaches 83% while keeping their customers' premiums the same instead of just raising prices, you're kidding yourself. Vote no.
Then… why so many people also support YES?
On the surface it looks like a good "right thing to do" policy, but it's not. It's dentists trying to push costs off on insurers with full knowledge that the insurers will just push the cost onto customers and not eat it themselves. If you're still thinking it's fundamentally a good issue campaign run by good people, the lead sponsor is this dentist named Mouhab Rizkallah who is a grade A scumbag currently under investigation by the Attorney General for fraud, including leaving kids braces on for multiple extra years in an attempt to gouge insurance companies. He was the subject of a front page Globe story over the summer when he sued the Tufts student paper for reporting on him and got told to eat shit.
I got it. But seems like most people are unknowingly supporting yes so it will pass
Since this rule has gone into effect for regular health insurance, over a billion dollars in excess premiums has been directly refunded to customers. In a very direct way premiums have been reduced from what they would have been.
I'm puzzled by your cynicism, at least in how exactly you think insurance companies will make such as policy pointless.
Am sick of advertisements in disguise like this. Most dental offices do not support this…and am sure you did no extensive research to make that statement.
What makes you think they will still offer any dental coverage to Massachusetts residents or still keep their businesses here if they lose so much money? They will pull out of the state. Hehe.
OK. I get where you’re coming from. And it was explained to me by one of these dental practice staff members. Her point was that dental insurance isn’t really insurance. It’s a discount card. Nothing more. But it’s kind of disappointing to all of us because we expected it to be insurance. Which it’s not. So it shouldn’t be called insurance. But if enough people decide not to buy dental insurance, there will be a lot of people who will decide to not get dental care. I think that will be the fallout.
No, they won't. If the insurers can't make money here they will leave the state. We'll then be stuck paying more to no name insurance companies that don't operate anywhere else because they won't have the ability to control costs like the big networks do.
I've never seen my health insurance get less expensive nor have I ever received a penny in premium rebates. It never ever happens.
I've yet to find a dentist who doesn't support this tbh.
As another reply to you said. Try again. None of what you've written is true. Customers don't get refunds, that's not even how the health one works.... 🙄
Then again, look at that username... 😂 So, not really surprising.
I’m more concerned about insurers pulling out of the state. But whatever insurers remain will have to comply with the law, so their profits will be limited. And if too many pull out maybe the state would step in and form some sort of state-run dental plan? I don’t really know what would happen. I’m still conflicted on this issue.
I literally got a check from BCBS last year. Google is much faster than spreading BS
Idk. Delta Dental of MA is what was on my mind. I'm not sure how they could leave, considering MA is in their name, and they pretty much operate in every other state. These companies will still profit -- just not as much as they'd like. We also passed a similar law for health insurance, but the big ones (BCBS, Tufts/Point32) are still around.
And if the CEO of Delta Dental MA, for example, makes $5M a year, I doubt having to pay an additional $160k in taxes is a big enough deal to move.
Your dental care is restricted by your dental insurance company. If you had no insurance you would get the real dental treatment plan needed to be of benefit to you.. when a patient comes in they usually do not want to spend a nickel out of pocket and just want what the insurance covers. So the dentist is generally restricted to a quick once a year prophy.. when patients start realising dental insurance is not only a garbage payment plan but is also detriment to their dental health they will start cancelling their policies. Save money improve your dental care by cancelling policies.
Insurance companies deny claims chisel UCR fees to a point where dentists cannot cover the cost of procedures that you might need so are reluctant to offer the treatments you need.. dental insurance companies deny claims all the time and then point the finger at the dentist so they do not look bad.. the fun part is as being a provider the dental insurance companies forbid in their agreements that dentists are not allowed to show what they were paid for a procedure.. example the ins co instead of denying a claim on your behalf will send a payment to the dentist D0120 FMX (X-rays) payment $0.. in the insurance industry that is classified as a paid claim in the amount of $0. The dentist then sends the patient a demand for $100 for example; the patient then calls their insurance who tell their customer who pays them monthly., no the dentist was paid. The patient then accuses the dentist of trying to scam them, the dentist cannot say we were paid $0 so the patient ends up angry and in collection.. support the dentist not the insurance business.
Old wives tale
Dental insurance is a racket; I’m a DSO people pay monthly for useless policies that restrict their dental health… I could sit here all day listing off why having any monthly fee policy is simply clever smoke screen garbage.. And if you have the HMO plan then you may as well not go to a dentist at all if you can find one that will take a plan that pays a max of $1.50 to perform procedures on a patient.
The best thing that could happen to the people of a state is for Delta Dental to stop existing in it
No dental insurance in the long term will leave you financially better off and with better dental health. Plans cover nothing if you know how to read eligibility sheets. Insurance is a business and could not care less about your dental health.. they will never spend more than what they can get out of you on a monthly basis.
As a DSO I can confirm you are wrong dentists do not control the insurance.. dental insurance is screwing with your dental health and your wallet. No dentist is going to give you the dental care you need if the dental insurance business will not cover it. Dental insurance are not in the medical care business they are in the insurance business. The “pennies” on the dollar they pay “never” cover the true cost of a dentists chair time.
Wtf_ dentists cannot charge insurance companies more simply because they are restricted to the insurance companies UCR fees..
Comfortable-scar. When you ask how much something is to a dentist it’s a bit like damaging your car and calling a shop and saying how much to fix my car… the dentist would need to take X-rays and examination to give you a cost.
LOL you have no idea how much it costs a dental practice to sit a patient in a chair for an hour… insurance UCR fee reimbursement has not changed since the 1960’s and the yearly benefit max is still in 1960 at a $1000 and $1500 both of which claims are denied and suppressed… I have yet to see a patient benefit from yearly max
Delta pays dentists $69 for dental cleaning. Which normally takes up to an hour of chair time. RDA is $30-$35 an hour, doctor $100 an hour. DELTA always screws the dental practice.. delta will respond to a dentist saying patient active plan and eligible.. the dental bill gets sent in 9 times out of 10 comes back NO SUCH SUBSCRIBER. The dentist then fight for approximately 6 months for payment, payment eventually comes as you are not giving up however Delta will deny something on there such as an X-ray or deny consultation; dentist usually ends up with between $35-$69.
LOL dentists are the losers in this three ring circus, the patient gets the dental care, the insurance company profits on the monthly residual, the dentists always get screwed on the UCR fee by the insurance company.. since when do insurance companies lose money?
Why not?? It’s a business.. you want to be paid in your job right?? Every dentist hates dealing with insurance companies, chasing the insurance for months for a tiny reimbursement.
I've never set foot on this so called Ireland and I laugh at anyone who claims it exists.
You're a fucking moron.
> they will never spend more than what they can get out of you on a monthly basis.
In aggregate, you’re correct. On an individual basis it’s a crap shoot. We are basically gambling on our health, except the prize is you owe money you maybe can’t afford to lose.
I’m going to keep paying for dental insurance anyway because my employer subsidized it, so it’s cheaper than paying for cleanings out of pocket. Other people will keep paying too, so there’s still the question of whether this law would raise their premiums or lower them.
Really? There are one billion dollars in rebates this year, 2 billion last year, and 2.5 billion the year before.
Why people like you make such arrogant statements without even verifying what you are saying amazes me.
The fact is most people are paying significantly more for health insurance than they were before the ACA. That some people get a check for a couple bucks doesn't offset that.
I mean, I've had thousands of dollars of work mostly covered by the insurance.
I agree that if all you need is two cleanings a year and nothing else, then yeah it's cheaper to go without the insurance. But you can't really anticipate major tooth problems.
This was going to happen regardless of the 80/20 rule. Nobody is promising a miracle here, just a slight improvement.
Health insurance could be more expensive, and almost certainly would be without this rule.
There are a million different variations of dental insurance mostly driven by how much an employer is willing to spend on coverage. Cherry picking the crappiest plans to make a point is silly.
Since when do dentists lose money? They don't make money on cleanings, they make money on cosmetic stuff which insurance doesn't cover anyway.
dont worry eyes arent covered either.. always baffling to someone who is legally blind (rock coke bottles that are capable of starting fires lol) that eyes arent considered necessary for ones health
american health care system is a fucking joke
whats the point of insurance when it doesnt cover any of the costs, is this real life?
This is why I’m voting no, I fundamentally don’t trust that guy as a former Somerville resident
seriously
think thats kinda the idea behind this question
That’s not how it will work. If you have to spend 83% on patient care no matter what you charge you still have to hit that ratio
I’d argue most hygienists are getting $45-50 an hour now
Yes, but say you currently have operating costs and profit of $32 on $100. Your operating costs don't magically go down to $17 because this passes. Maybe they can lay off some people and outsource claims to India to get it down to $25, which means to hit the 87%, they'll raise your rate to $147, and just pay your dentist more to compensate for the remainder of the money. They aren't going to be able to lower their costs to $17, they will raise rates to get to their overhead and just pay out the rest to dentists.
Yeah, they do magically go down. Wanna know how? Delta dental gave its parent company $291 million. Boom
You think they will run Massachusetts without a profit?
Delta dental is a non profit so absolutely yes
Every insurance company has profit, even the non-profit ones. They keep reserves for future claims and growth, and of course, other charitable donations. Harvard Pilgrim had $700M in carried surpluses when they merged to Point32.
I don't think Delta is just going to give it up. And they aren't the only dental insurance company, that's not who I have, there are dozens of them. I'm guessing mine doesn't make much profit on the $19.99 to just keep the rates as is.
The polls are showing my point of view is going to win so I look forward to the facts proving you wrong
Of course I do hope for my own sake you do prove me wrong! In the event my premium goes up, can I send the bill to you? Lol!
I don’t know how your insurance company is operating at $240 a year. I don’t think that’s enough to cover two cleanings, X-rays, and a exam never mind other services you may need like drills and fills
In most states, $240 is a lot; I used to pay cash to my dentist in NY $173 per year for THREE cleanings and one exam (if you have healthy teeth you have no need for a bi-annual exam, that's just a dental scam, all you need is cleanings and one exam a year, I liked having a cleaning ever 4 months). Even my exam I just had last month was a near joke, he didn't even count off the teeth, just looked in for about 20 seconds.
The people against it probably believe private insurance decreases the cost of medical costs lmfao
Yak_Rodeo t1_ivffvk1 wrote
lol they are encouraging you to vote yes because they will get paid more. it benefits customers and dentists