Submitted by elRigs83 t3_10p2j09 in books

[i]Spoiler Warning Discussion several ongoing book series [/i]

Any reason is a good reason to talk about art. Following a bought of COVID 19 two years ago I quickly became a voracious reader again. I believe the need to exist in the mind in order to read comprehensively has given me the peaceful quiet I need from modern media and social networks. That said I quickly found myself reading Japanese lite novels and there Western equivalent of litrpg. The main difference I have noticed after reading roughly 500 books after three years is that the protagonist in Western world skew older, are more sexually proactive and both are pro might makes right but Western works tend to have a more Murder Hobo vibe.

Case number 1 we have Mushoku Tensei with an MC who decided to not go to his parents funeral but instead stay at home and watch and I quote "loliporn". After many ups and downs are MC reincarnation Rude us Greyrat has sex for the first time with a 17 girl but because he's in a 15 year olds body we can ignore the fact he has the accumulated life experience of 49 years. Some years and many trials later he married multiple women whose most defining characteristic is that they are either physically very young or even appear almost child like to human eyes.

For other lite novels a clear trope of older men in the bodies of teenagers engaging romantically with girls young enough to be their daughters often appears.

Besides the uncomfortable allusions to pedophilia you get a lot of champion of colonialism especially in Western portal books. To explain a portal book is one where someone gets access to another world but can get back to Earth.

For examples of the portal series I bring up two. Backyard Dungeon and Looting the 13th Floor. Both series involved working poor white American man gaining access to another world then almost immediately meet and usually rescue a beautiful and exotic non human woman who is oddly amorous and sexually pliant. They rarely have any real agency and of course Any reason is a good reason to talk about art. their white American man to be their King/Boss and persue sexual relationships with multiple women. All this whole using modern firearms against pre industrial people. Even the most amateurish historians can clearly see echoes of American Manifest Destiny and Japan's war against China during WW2.

The author's of these series have every right to write the story they want but I simply wish to begin a discussion and thoughts I have. Please note I won't stop reading these books but would enjoy any suggestions for series that don't fall into the trope mentioned here

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Warm-Enthusiasm-9534 t1_j6i354g wrote

I wouldn't defend most isekai (and I actively avoid most of them, other than villainess isekai), but I find them interesting as a phenomenon. One cultural aspect that I think is interesting is that Western readers spend a lot of time trying to decode the secret meaning of the stuff they read, while in East Asia they mostly don't really give a shit. If dudes want to read 30 identical light novels about a dude who is immediately overpowered and has four waifus, they will produce 30 of these novels and then give them 30 anime adaptations until the money runs out. Chinese fantasy novels sound the most extreme -- you'll see plots where a dude kills literally millions while having a harem of twenty. (Killing every member of a clan because one of them wronged them is a common reason for mass murder.) Thinking that your leisure consumption needs to be virtuous seems like a Western virtue.

FWIW, the female-led isekai have the same age gap dynamic with the genders reversed. You don't usually get actual harems (because that would be slutty, I guess) but you do get five guys who pine after the female lead because she's just so wonderful. This the level of self-indulgence that gets Western audiences to complain "she's a Mary Sue". But the core audience doesn't give a shit. Of course she's a Mary Sue -- that's what they're paying for.

This leads to a lot of garbage (most isekai, for example), but it leads to a big pulp fiction market that doesn't really exist in the West anymore. The closest is YA, but even the discussion around YA has a lot of anxiety about whether it's virtuous. You also have many other fringe genres like Western litrpg, but that is a pretty small publishing market. Re:Zero or Reincarnated as a Slime are closer to Harry Potter in their cultural prominence in Japan than they are to Western litrpg.

Mushoku Tensei has a weird vibe around it that makes it seem extra-sleazy (the author feels like he's indulging in something), but in a way if you are going to tell a reincarnation story you're stuck with it. What's the alternative? The lead who is in a 17-year-old body dates a 40-year-old? That usually ends up worse -- that's you end up with the "it's okay that she looks 12 because she's a 1000 year old demon" characters.

The only light novel I've read directly is Tearmoon Empire, which is basically "the French Revolution, but a comedy". The main character is basically Marie Antoinette, and after getting beheaded she gets a chance to go back and redo it to avert her fate. It avoid all of the tropes. Otherwise I only know them from their anime adaptations. The Executioner and Her Way of Life is about someone who's job it is to murder isekai protagonists, so it's less trope-y. The light novel for Oregairu, which isn't a fantasy at all but instead about high school, is supposed to be very good.

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mzk24601 t1_j6j628y wrote

> "it's okay that she looks 12 because she's a 1000 year old demon" characters.

Thats an odd one to parse. The first time I read something like that was let the right one in.

Its interesting that people only seem to discuss one of the pedophiles in the book.

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AtraMikaDelia t1_j6ii739 wrote

I mean, Japanese stuff in general is going to usually push past what would be allowed in the West. But that isn't unique to Isekai. For example, Spice and Wolf is a fairly normal fantasy romance series, except the male MC is 25 and the girl appears to be 15 (of course she's a wolf goddess so she isn't actually 15, but it's specifically stated that she looks 15)

Obviously something like that just wouldn't fly in the west, but Japan is Japan, so it's normal. I could give plenty of other examples if you really want, but my point is just that your complaint has everything to do with Japan and nothing to do with Isekai specifically.

The American stories you mention appear to be self published erotica, so I'm not sure why you are expecting much out of them. Like no shit the main character goes around having sex with a bunch of hot girls, that's literally the premise.

And I don't think people from the modern era using guns against people armed with medieval levels of technology is equivalent to Japan's invasion of China in 1937. Like China was outmatched in that war, but they weren't THAT outmatched

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Lord0fHats t1_j6ijsxu wrote

This is where I recall Gate and So the SDF Fought there.

Or, as I sometimes call it 'Imperial Japan did nothing wrong and Colonialism is just fine as long as you're moral about it.'

This isn't every one of these fics by any measure, but this is a theme I occassionally see in manga, anime, and light novels. Unsurprising. The legacy of Imperial Japan is culturally contentious in Japan today. Inevitably that will find itself reflected in the fiction and media that culture produces. The anime for Gate actually has it better than the manga where it gets harder and harder to ignore the story as it starts justifying Japan's colonizing of a fantasy work and making allusions to Imperial Japan that are thinly veiled at best.

And I could rant for hours about the frequency with which people miss the Nazism analogies in Zeon and the Gundam Unicorn lightnovels were freaking insane on this front, bordering on political diatribes at times.

The anime adaptations have a tendency of toning these elements down.

It has bled over into the LITRPG space somewhat, though in a variant that is more lacking in consideration of its content than anything. These genres borrow a lot from Eastern popular media so the osmosis is to be expected. I wouldn't say the genre is racist or pro-colonial per se. I would say it is at times very unintrospective about its contents and tropes. The writers adopt the motifs of things they like without a hard look at any implications they may carry.

I could make that criticism about most fiction, especially the pulpier popcorn varieties. People are reading them for the power fantasy, and many of them frame themselves as 'young hero fights abusive power structures' kind of stories. This is more a case of unfortunate implication than intent (most of the time, anyway).

As to women and young girls, oh yeah. This is a thing that's way more common in anime and manga than western media and it's bled over in much more unsavory ways. I still remember Reddit from I don't even know how many years ago anymore when Church of Kuro wasn't a banned sub and if you think it's bad now you have no idea. It's still kind of bad.

Though western made stuff generally skips it. Lots of western works in these genres are made and written for people in the early-to-mid 20s and the stories reflect this. The cringy presentation of younger girls and teens or the fetishizing of adolescent bodies isn't nearly as bad as you'll find in translated works originating in Japan, South Korea, or China. And there we have a more blatant case of values dissonance.

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OceanCrawler7 t1_j6iu71f wrote

Who could have expected that garbage, shovelware style books are in fact garbage.

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