Submitted by ChickenDragon123 t3_10nnvtq in books

I want to preface this discussion with the understanding that I am a fan of David Weber's work. I was introduced to On Basilisk Station fresh out of college, and I've since read most of the work that takes place in that universe as well as a fair bit that takes place outside it. However, I took a break after a little while to read other authors and read different types of Sci-fi and Fantasy, including some of Weber's contemperaries like Eric Flint, only recently coming back to his work with Safehold, and I have to say I'm still a fan.
However, time and experience have granted me a greater understanding of Weber's flaws as a writer, and I have a better idea of where his critics are coming from. This is largely an attempt to focus my thoughts, and provoke some discussion (not to start at war about how David Weber is a bad writer or the best writer ever).
So where David Weber works best, is his Aspirational Heroes. For fans of the Dresden Files, imagine if the main character of that series were Michael, instead of Harry. All of Weber's main characters (at least the ones that he's written by himself) that I've read fall into that. They are Capital H Heroes. Their enemies are Capital V Villains. In fact I can comfortably say Weber's villains are a breath of fresh air in a world where every villain has to have a tragic backstory. I distinctly remember in one of the Honor Harrington books shouting "Oh you utter Bastards!" towards a group of villains that were discussing taxes. Yes, David Weber is a good enough author to make Space taxes and interesting and dramatic topic.
But in this strength is a flaw, and that flaw is simplified morality. In a David Weber work, you are either a Hero, a Villain, or a meatshield. Now, to be fair, you can be on any side and be a "good" person or a "bad" person. Manticore has as many bad people as Haven. But when the chips are down no one is ever allowed to be in the middle, unless they are dead.
Beyond that, many of these "Aspirational Heroes" come off as Mary Sue's because they lack any real character flaws, or at least the text encourages you to overlook them. Honor Harrington for example is shown to have a temper. In Field of Dishonor she is driven to murder (via legal duel) two people. Now that murder is somewhat justified within the text, the villain had harrassed Honor throughout the Navy and had her Fiance murdered in a duel, but it was without a doubt, Murder. There was no reluctance, no hesitation, she knew what the result would be, and she still committed the act. It was just socially acceptable and it wasn't treated by the text as a problem. Later in the series, she starts a relationship with an admiral that outranks her, at least at the time, while he is married. Instead of really exploring that issue, digging into the character flaws, because it is Honor, and because it's love, she enters into a three-way marriage with him. There is just never any long term internal struggle with a David Weber character.
Part of the reason this type of character appeals, is the themes of Duty and Patriotism loom large in Weber's work. A great many sins can be overlooked in the service of well, military service. This makes it appeal to service members, people like Police, Military, Doctors and Nurses, because the act of duty, erases the other sins to some extent. However, this is somewhat undercut but the realization that Honor is never required to actually do the wrong thing is she? She's never told to fire on civilians, she's never told to lie, to cheat, to steal. Sure, she's told to do things that are incompetent, but she's never ordered to do something morally wrong. She's never told to do something evil. There is always the understanding that the system she serves is a Good one even if there is incompetent or corrupt leadership within it.
Honor is often punished for success, but never for disobeying an unlawful order. Doing the right thing often costs her or her crew, but it rarely has a lasting effect. That carries over to the Safehold books as well (at least the first. I haven't read the others.) Merlin is fighting a corrupt system. Thus, whatever he does, is justified. He never hesitaties, never wrestles with the morality of a situation. He just trusts that what he's doing is the right thing. He murders, lies by ommision, steals, and does a hundred other immoral things, but he never once doubts.
In many ways Weber's approach to character is the opposite of someone like Brandon Sanderson. Take Kaladin for example. His internal depression is why we root for his external resilience. His flaw defines him, and the knife-edged struggle keeps us interested. Dalinar has a sordid past, and everything he does now, is an attempt at redemption. Redemption drives him and motivates him. Honor though never wrestles with Dishonor, at least not by the standards of the book. Her name defines her character. We never once see her stumble, never once see her fall. We never question if she's done the right thing.
This is partly down to focus. As much as Sanderson is concerned with never breaking his own rules, Weber is obsessive about the accuracy of his own. Missile arrival times will be calculated down to the second, logisitics have to make sense, the science has to be accurate in extreme detail. Sanderson can handwave to some extent, Weber can't. He's cultivated a fan base that will double check his math. For some people that is the juice. The vision of the future where we've reached the stars and the math makes sense. A sci-fi world where you can taste the verisimillitude appeals to a lot of people. Hell, it appeals to me.
I whole heartedly reccomend Weber's books to people that haven't read them. But I don't recommend all of them. The ideas once presented are facinating, until you've seen them for the hundredth time. That's probably the biggest problem I have with Weber. His series don't really end. I can wholeheartedly reccomend the first five Honor Harrington books. If you like them keep reading, there will always be more, but it may not get Better.
David Weber is one of my favorite authors, but I'd be lying if I said he was one of the best I've read. One of the best for his genre, absolutely. But his characters start to feel flat after a bit. And the idea that we can all pull ourselves up by our bootstraps doesn't seem as plausible as it once did. I think we need authors like Weber though. We need that aspiration. I just wish it were more nuanced. I wish the morality weren't quite so simple. I wish the internal struggles mirrored the external ones.

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Thanks for reading. I hope to continue this conversation in the comments down below.

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Quixventure t1_j69u6ac wrote

I’ve also read most of the Honorverse and and Safehold, and… I agree completely. Love his work, recommend it to others, but 20ish books in and you see a distinct pattern :)

To his credit though, very few SciFi authors can keep a coherent universe together like he can. Taxes, politics, technology and physics… it’s amazing.

But… When I need a breath of fresh air, I switch over to lois mcmaster bujold…

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PreciousRoi t1_j6afa8v wrote

I would push back just a bit at the notion that his good guys are simply Good and his bad guys are simply Bad.

Not All Havenites.

There are also conflicted characters, some whose motivations are colored by their own ignorance or they are victims of propaganda or circumstances beyond their control.

Also have you read any of L.E. Modesitt Jr.'s Ecolitan stuff? ...always wished he'd gone back there like he did with Recluse or Lydiar (Imager).

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ChickenDragon123 OP t1_j6ahh6v wrote

See paragraph 3. Yeah Haven has some good guys, Manticore has some bad guys, but when the chips are down these characters are either textually "good" or textually "bad" regardless of what side they are on. At least if they are alive. There are no (for example) Tyrion Lannisters, no Mabs. There are np guys that are on their own side. They all fit neatly into one of four boxes Manticore Good, Manticore Bad, Haven Good, Haven Bad. They aren't allowed their own motivations, or if they are they fit in the bad category because they aren't patriots. That's what leads to them feeling flat. Manticore good is ride or die Manticore. Manticore Bad is "this is what will best fit my personal political ambitions and screw Manticore for the long term." There isn't any nuance between them.

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rksd t1_j6aiq6e wrote

I think my issue was the quality dropoff. I quit reading them around book 10 or so? The last book I read was like half a book, and I remember seeing a subsequent book on the shelf with two typos...on the back cover. Whoever is running Baen since Jim Baen died is barely even phoning it in.

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Indifferent_Jackdaw t1_j6amnfs wrote

Agreed, I absolutely loved how Safehold explored how a technology base is required for technological advancement. But I really wish he had made this a series of trilogies, where each generation build on the achievements of the generation before. Because we go from Battle of Lepanto to the American Civil War in a decade. It's too much.

I also agree with you that there is a problem with the goodies being too good. Because there is very little peril in the later books.

I would just like to recommend his War God series though. It gets very little love and the original 3 books are great. He restarted the series more recently though and those books are shite.

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killcat t1_j6amysa wrote

He suffers from bloat, he often writes himself into a corner, either through technological advancement (to the point that the good guys are not really threatened anymore) or being unable to progress the story because there's no real way to advance it.

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DavesWorldInfo t1_j6anxtp wrote

Everything below is In My Opinion. Also I get you (OP) probably know the stories, but I talk about them for context for myself and for other thread participants.

I used to be a huge David Weber fan. Huge. I would preorder the books and devour every snippet, and later the ARCs. I'm much less of one now because he got infected by Flint and a few others and turned to writing political opera instead of military SF.

Honor is a Mary Sue, clearly. Just because a character is such doesn't have to mean they're not fun or interesting to follow along with, and clear through Honor7 (In Enemy Hands) the tales of her rise were intriguing and enthralling.

Honor is one of those characters you dream of getting to meet. A character you wish would be a leader in real life you could follow. Dedicated, competent, just, determined, and honorable. Without any smudge of corruption or selfishness. She was so fascinating and fun to follow along with. Weber excelled at putting her into situations where all of these qualities could be enjoyed and heralded, could be taken as cathartic joy for so many of us stuck in lives where none of these things are true, where evil does always win and gets to laugh hysterically while doing it.

The first Honor book I picked up was Honor4 (Field of Dishonor). At the time, though I found out afterwards when I realized that book was an "anomaly" compared to the prior ones that focused on space naval action, I just took it as a really interesting Space Hornblower tale (which, obviously, was exactly what Weber was going for.)

The passage you mention from Field is so fantastic. When a senior (arguably the senior admiral of the Manticorian Navy she serves) comes to her begging for Honor to do the political thing and swallow her pride and pain, and let the murder of the first and only man she'd ever loved go. The scene you reference comes to a head right here when Honor replies to his plea:

> "Then what's the point, Sir?" The anger had gone out of her voice, and despair softened the hardness of her eyes, yet she held his gaze with a forlorn pride that cut him to the heart. "All I ask of my Queen and my Kingdom—all I've ever asked—is justice, My Lord. That's all I have a right to ask for, but I have a right to it. Isn't that what's supposed to separate us from the Peeps?" He winced, and she went on in that soft, pleading voice. "I don't understand politics, Sir. I don't understand what gives a Pavel Young the right to destroy everything he touches and hide behind the importance of compromise and political consensus. But I understand duty and common decency. I understand justice, and if no one else can give it to me, then just this once I'll take it for myself, whatever it costs."

That is so powerful. And she does it. At that point in the story the reader believes she's not rolling the dice. The question isn't if she can, but what happens to her if she does. And she doesn't care, she wants justice, she wants to see right done even if it costs her everything. Even if it costs her Queen and her Navy both her and a whole lot of other trouble as well, she's going to take that justice no matter what. Because they're all too weak, too political, to give her this one thing after everything she's given them.

It's fantastic. The whole tale is just fantastic.

Honor8 (Echos) and Honor9 (Ashes) started to shift everything that "An Honor Harrington Story" was, from death rides, space and fleet battles, navy life ... into politics, more politics, and still more politics.

Honor10 (War) mostly brought it back to Honor doing what she was at her most interesting doing (fighting a ship or a fleet in battle), but then every subsequent story just shuffled fleet actions further and further off stage. Some that might've been really interesting to see played out were just handled completely off screen, and you'd just hear characters talking about the ramifications of the battle.

Safehold turned it even worse in this direction with Weber's stories. The setup for Safehold was extremely interesting. A literal last gasp of humanity, days from being utterly wiped from the galaxy by a violently aggressive alien race, manages to launch a last gasp colony ship that isn't detected by said aliens.

Then the leadership of that colony fleet decides to create a theocracy, with themselves as the literal angels and gods worshiped by the society of humans who are born and raised on the colony planet humanity's final sons and daughters end up on. A single low ranking officer (who, through plot stuff, has her consciousness transferred into a nearly immortal android body) is put in hibernation by the handful of leaders who opposed the theocratic plan.

Then she wakes up five hundred years later (after the 'gods' are finally dead), and is briefed via recording as to what happened and what her goal is; to prepare humanity for the aliens' eventual discovery of them. She goes out into the world and finds the theocracy has infected humanity and deliberately held all technology at or below medieval levels. The number and mathematics system uses Roman numerals specifically to make any sort of calculations or economics as difficult as possible. Any technological advancement is considered the Devil's work and inventors are tortured or executed.

Her goal is to overthrow the theocracy, and do it in standard Weber fashion (superior technology; all Weber combat scenes revolve around someone, almost always the heroes, having a technological advantage). So our android heroine needs to convince a chosen faction to be her tool to rise up and free humanity from the chains of brutal, misguided, selfish theocratic cretins, and we'd get to have a whole walk through military history as they move from swords and arrows to muskets, repeaters, cannons, sailing ship technology, eventually (I assume) tanks and then aircraft and so on.

That's all fantastic. Great world building. Super interesting character who has a big challenge ahead of her.

But every name in the series is so hard to read, so weird and alien with strange letter combinations. And There Are So Many Of Them. Not just the characters, but the places too, the cities, the geography, the everything. None of it flowed off the page for me, and with half a dozen factions or more, each with dozens and dozens of characters, it was just way too much to try and keep track of. Especially since he would jump around constantly; some setting would appear for part of a chapter, then vanish for most of the book only to reappear and it's supposed to make sense even though they've been lost in the weird wash of stuff.

Obviously a lot of people like "political theater." That's fine. Enjoy the stories. I miss the Weber who wrote about a hero. Not seventeen minor heroes being opposed by seventy-four different villains, split into four or five different factions with varying goals, all being dropped in and out of "the story" in a confusing fashion.

I liked Honor stories because I wanted to read about Honor. She was the draw. The world she was in was interesting because of her, not for its own sake. Same with Safehold. I found Nimue interesting and wanted to follow her, but Safehold stories treat her like a side character.

I really miss what Weber used to be. I really do.

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ChickenDragon123 OP t1_j6axud3 wrote

I'm glad to see this comment, as it's the kind of discussion I wanted to see. I agree with a lot of your points, but I think I may not have done a good enough job explaining myself. Books 4 and 5 of HH are my favorite in the series, precisely because they have more of a internal struggle than any of the other books. When Weber's writing works, it WORKS. But he spends more time in the logistic rooms where characters are no longer characters, but instead vehicles for military policy.

Books 4 and five showed Honor as a Character. She had doubts and asperations. Her morals might have been a bit off base in my opinion, (I still maintain that she murdered Pavel Young, even if he cheated. She intended to leave him dead for what he did to her.) But she was understandable. Her reasoning was sound, and her cause was one I could get behind. Book five really played with her doubts, her fears, and brought all of that into sharper focus, but it never went past that. None of the other books ever delved that deeply into Honor's Psychology. Into her character, and the only ones who stand up to her are the bad guys.

HH as a series leaves Honor missing something. Honor has a mindset similar to Captain America, or Iron man, without anyone who will challenge her ideas. Honor is Polarizing, every one is for or against her, but there's never anyone in the middle. She has a self-assuredness that while deserved, never get's questioned.

Even when murdering Pavel she KNOWS she's doing the right thing.

PS 100% agree with you on safehold. I enjoyed the first book, but man sometimes it feels like being dropped into game of thrones book 4 with all of these characters I need to keep track of.

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DavesWorldInfo t1_j6b2r7f wrote

> (I still maintain that she murdered Pavel Young, even if he cheated. She intended to leave him dead for what he did to her.)

I'm going to have to categorically disagree with any definition of what happened between Honor and Pavel on the field as murder. I really do.

First, what she did was legal. In the Kingdom of Manticore, dueling is legal. Debating the morality or "rightness" of dueling is a separate discussion I feel. In Manticore, dueling is legal.

Second, I've got the file for FoD open on another screen, but I'd have to literally skim through the whole thing to count to be certain I hadn't missed something. But Young was attempting to destroy her, and doing it via violence. Some of it was legal, some of it clearly wasn't.

He abused the dueling regulations by hiring a ringer; legal, but of questionable morality. Dueling is designed for two people of good standing to settle differences they can't settle via other means. Young hired a professional duelist, a literal killer who does it legally, to kill Paul.

I don't remember just how clear Young was about his ideas for "the full plan", but IIRC his thinking was Honor would go after Summervale for "revenge" and die in that duel. Because Summervale was supposed to be death with a gun, fast and accurate and unstoppable; that's why Summervale had a career as a professional duelist, and why Young had hired him.

Clearly, Honor was better with a gun than anyone expected. Mary Sue, but that's also a separate discussion (and not an interesting one IMO). Honor challenged Summervale and took him out, legally. Young also didn't expect Summervale would have been made to talk and spill Young's involvement, when Honor's subordinates forced Summervale to reveal the whole scenario when they 'questioned' him.

So now Honor knows Young orchestrated the whole thing. Young immediately begins using politics and the dueling code to avoid her being able to challenge him. The setup was a challenge (to duel) has to be issued in person, so he moved Heaven and Earth trying to ensure she'd never be in a room with him.

He, and others in the Navy and Government, started trying to force Honor to either accept orders and be shipped out to a duty station (away from Young), or resign and continue seeking to challenge him. Then Young hired mercenaries (common criminal hitmen IIRC) to attempt to assassinate Honor in public.

At that point Honor (and Weber, in a twist I rather enjoyed) took advantage of the fact that while she despised politics, she actually did have the legal right to be seated in the House of Lords. Which was where Young was hiding from her, thinking she couldn't go. Where she was finally able to challenge him.

The entire setup was Young was trying to hide behind politics and position, including his position in society. He couldn't decline the challenge without suffering political damage (another discussion about dueling, not the story) so he was 'forced' to accept.

Then, at the duel, he broke the dueling rules. Which were quite simple; stand back to back, walk thirty paces, and stop. When the master of the field says turn, they can both turn and fire a single shot at the other.

After that one shot was exchanged, Young would be able to "honorably" declare honor had been satisfied without political damage. Except he felt Honor would kill him with that single shot. So he panicked, acted without honor, and attempted to murder her by turning early and shooting before the master of the field had declared turn.

The very story states Young's life was forfeit when he broke the rules. The master of the field, using a space gun, was in the process shooting him as penalty for violating the dueling rules. Honor was hit by Young's shot, seriously wounded. Yet (Mary Sue, gotta love Mary Sues) even wounded she manages to roll back to her feet and shoot Young three times in the chest before the master of the field could get his own shots off.

Young was dead the moment he fired at Honor early. The master of the field was empowered to kill him for that, and did fire. Honor was entitled to defend herself from someone who broke the rules of the duel in an attempt to murder her before being killed himself for his actions.

The Kingdom of Manticore didn't charge her with murder. None of Young's political allies were able to charge her with murder. They used political maneuvering to dismiss her from the House of Lords and active service because they're evil villains who just seek to torture and punish all who dare oppose them, but that was the extent of the penalties.

The fact that she got her own shots off in self defense against Young doesn't make her returning fire murder. It really doesn't. I strongly reject any contention that it does. Of course each reader is always encouraged to have their own reactions. Mine will never include characterizing Honor as a murderer. Ever.

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twbrn t1_j6bxs29 wrote

> Honor is a Mary Sue, clearly. Just because a character is such doesn't have to mean they're not fun or interesting to follow along with

I would agree with both those statements. That said, the big problem I had with the series (besides Weber's very obvious tendencies toward inserting his personal politics) and the reason I gave up on it was that everything goes right for her.

You can have a character who's overpowered, better than others, and even just out and out perfect, but when you then feel the need to make all their enemies stupid, and everyone else fawn over them, and everything just happen to work out in their favor, it kills any real dramatic tension. Having a character overcome superior odds through cleverness and skill is great; having them overcome superior odds because their enemies are idiots who just happen to do everything exactly wrong is boring.

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leftai2000 t1_j6c5djh wrote

I've been reading the Honorverse and related side branch books for a while now, with varying enjoyment. Not the greatest writer, but they are nicely plotted, and fun to read, although I kind of skip through some of the missile count sections, which feel kind of repetitive to me.

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ChickenDragon123 OP t1_j6c9c99 wrote

Okay, In universe you're right. She isn't a murderer, at least not legally. In real world law? I can't think of a juristiction she wouldn't be charged with murder. Ethically, I also think she commited murder. Was that murder justified? I think yes. Pavel Young is the sort of person that I don't want existing. He was a coward, a traitor, a sexual predator, abusive, and a murderer himself.

However, Honor forced the confrontation. No one doubted she was going to kill Pavel if she had the chance. Unless you can find me a sentence where she specifically says she isn't going to kill him, I'm going to say she was going to kill him. He abused her, physically, emotionally and sexually. He killed her fiance, and he evaded justice. She was going to kill him. She intended to kill him. She forced him socially into a position where she could kill him. He wasn't actively trying to kill her at that point. She went after him. Again, I think she was justified somewhat, but she meant to kill him.

The fact he cheated in the duel doesn't make it self defence. If I lure you into an ambush intending to shoot you but you pull the trigger first, I don't get to claim self defence. It doesn't matter how terrible a person you are, I was planning on killing you.

Now, Honor can claim Justice all she wants. To some extent I even believe her. I think she would let the courts have handled it if she had been given the opportunity. But they didn't. She didn't kill Pavel reluctantly. She wanted it. You cannot tell me that vengeance didn't play a role. What do we call a killing that isn't self defence, an accident, or an act of war? Murder.

If I'm on that jury, I'm going for nullification. I'm saying she didn't do it, even though she clearly did. I want her to get away with it. But, I also recognize Honor murdered that dude.

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DavesWorldInfo t1_j6ccmav wrote

Remember the initial setup for the entire story. In the previous novel (Short Victorious War), Young had deserted out of sheer, inexcusable cowardice. Against direct orders. The only people who didn't see, or admit, that Young ordered not just his ship out of formation, but the squadron of other ships he was leading as well, to flee was because of cowardice and panic were his political allies. Young's own first officer saw him, the captain of Warlock, as a coward and deserter.

His ordering of his squadron out of formation, and then continuing to flee the formation against orders to return while the fleet was engaged against overwhelming odds, got Manticorian spacers killed. Warlock's absence weakened missile defense nets. It caused confusion and chaos in the tactical situation. These things are directly responsible for the death of Naval Personnel.

The first section of the story deals with how Young's political connections are shielding him from the consequences of this action. Desertion and cowardice in time of combat is a firing squad offense in the Royal Manticorian Navy. In most real world militaries it is as well. For what he did at First Hancock he was facing the death penalty.

Yet and his political allies abused their power to spare him of this penalty. To the detriment of the RMN and the Manticorian government. One of the reasons militaries punish what he did (desertion in battle) so harshly is the damage it does to the overall fighting spirit of the entire service. When soldiers/spacers know they can cut and run without consequence, some will. It'll happen more often. Which gets people killed. Which loses battles. Which loses wars.

This point is made throughout the trial deliberations as the factions (Navy vs Young's Allies) argue over whether or not Young should be punished (killed). It's not that the Navy wanted Young to die, it's that he needed to because sparing him told the rest of the Navy "desertion and cowardice that gets Naval Personnel killed won't be punished."

After merely being dishonorably discharged, Young hates Honor more than he already did. He resented her previously because he was a noble, and she wasn't. Yet she had a brilliant career, and was getting promoted past him. He was a small, petty man who wanted revenge. He didn't see that his own personal failings were the source and cause of his stalled (and then ruined) career. He just decided Honor was to blame because if she'd never showed up in his life, he would've risen just as a noble should because that's his noble birthright; to ascend and be lauded.

So he plotted to kill her.

When Honor challenged him to the duel, she didn't just say "you killed my lover/friend."

> "My Lords and Ladies, there is among you a man who has conspired at murder rather than face his enemies himself. A would-be rapist, a coward, and a man who hired a paid duelist to kill another. A man who sent armed thugs into a public restaurant only two days ago to murder someone else and failed in his purpose by the narrowest margin." ...

> "My Lords and Ladies, I accuse Pavel Young, Earl North Hollow, of murder and attempted murder. I accuse him of the callous and unforgivable abuse of power, of cowardice in the face of the enemy, of attempted rape, and of being unfit not simply for the high office he holds but for life itself. I call him coward and scum, beneath the contempt of honest and upright subjects of this Kingdom, whose honor is profaned by his mere presence among them, and I challenge him, before you all, to meet me upon the field of honor, there to pay once and for all for his acts!"

Emphasis mine.

Honor used the dueling laws for arguably one of the very purposes they exist (in the story and in real world nations that had them). Young had wrapped himself in political advantage to gain power and avoid consequences. He sought to use his position to abuse and shirk his responsibilities. Dueling was, and is, a way to "even the scales." Officers in England on occasion challenged other officers to duels over the same kinds of things Young was doing, and for the same reason Honor did; to even the scales and impose consequences where the system had failed to.

She didn't just seek revenge for herself, though she definitely wanted that. She also sought revenge for fellow crew members and officers of the RMN. She sought to correct the error of the story's initial tribunal that issued a flawed verdict that spared Young and allowed him to escape the deserved consequences of his action.

He got people killed. They died because of his cowardice. They died because he planned it. They died because he didn't care to discharge his responsibilities as an officer and member of the House of Lords in an honest and forthright manner. They died because he felt his life and his plans for his life mattered more than their lives did to them.

I submit that, if anyone "ever needed killing", Young is on that list.

Honor is not a murder. Young deserved to die many times over. Many. She was justice come knocking. Not just for herself. For the Navy that was too weak to impose it themselves.

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Griffen_07 t1_j6czp6i wrote

I used to love the Honorverse. Here was a series where a woman being a fantastic hero is normal. Honor is special due to her skill not due to her gender. Then Weber decides to abandon this fantastic and rare premise to focus on religion. Now we have Honor as extra special because she is a woman. We have a giant side rant over evil fundies against good ‘moderates’.

This is made explicit in Safehold which is good not Protestants against evil not Catholics. We had to make sure it was explicit by making the not Catholics commit the worse excesses of the Spanish Inquisition mixed with echos of the Holocaust.

That is just annoying. I wanted to read popcorn books about space navies not religious rants.

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fantomen777 t1_j6d0384 wrote

> I’ve also read most of the Honorverse and and Safehold, and… I agree completely. Love his work, recommend it to others, but 20ish books in and you see a distinct pattern :)

Yes, Honerverse should have ended with "At All Costs"

Realy like the Idea of Safehold, but the last book was a waste, yes it is realy intresting to have post war economic story, but you tempted with "whats under the tempel" since book one, and that was the only thing that prevented Merlin from go full terminator and win the war day one.

It was so stupid to make Clyntahn >!a true beliver, what will you do if you "know" that your religious beliefs are real, and the devil trying to destroy the world, that make him a well-intentioned extremist, and not a power hungry villan. The final confrontation feel so bad, a real devil visit me in my cell, and taunt my fate, great further evidence my fate is true, and I will soon be a blessed martyr. Insted David Weber just have Clyntahn know that Merlin say is true, and he louse his fate!<

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Gyr-falcon t1_j6dnu9y wrote

This entire discussion should be prefaced with spoiler tags. For anyone who hasn't read Weber and HH in particular too many storylines are given away in plain text.

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Bleu_Superficiel t1_j6dpo8g wrote

>Having a character overcome superior odds through cleverness and skill is great; having them overcome superior odds because their enemies are idiots who just happen to do everything exactly wrong is boring.

Only the very early and the later books suffer from it thought, and the story have "good" reasons for the former.

Honor do not face utterly dumb antagonist on the following books until the Solarian come into play, and there it is indeed way overdone on the many small battle between the various Alliance and Solarian fleets in which Honor actually only leads 2 actions.

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wontpleaseeveryone t1_j6dpwl2 wrote

Just an adendem . Seek out David Feituch's Hope series if you want a more angsty fantastic space opera. Honestly I love Weber for his simplicity. It streamlines the emotions you feel. When you start one of his books, you know the emotional ride upon which you will find yourself.

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Bleu_Superficiel t1_j6duaf9 wrote

I agree that David Weber have some flaws as a writer, and certainely suffer from the lack of a strong editor on his latest books ( much should have been cut from them ).

Honor is often too good on too many things, but not everything Honor wants to or is about to do is perfect or right.

On the second book for exemple >!her choice to send the heaviest ship away on a patrol because their captains are women turned out to be a mistake leading to the one sided destruction of a fleet and the death of a dear friend. She is also later on the verge of executing prisonners of war, war criminals, rapists, disguting scums who will be shot for their crime anyway, but she was about to kill them on the spot without trial until one of her officiers stopped her.!<

As for Honor or Merlin's lack of introspection, i fully disagree, >!Honor tortures herself with her feelings with the Admiral for 3 ( 4? ) whole books before she is invited into the marriage by his wife. Merlin often wonder whether what he has done was the right thing, and later SPOILER !< >!pick the opportunity of not including those recent memories into the his "copy", thus saving her from suffreing the very same dilemnas .!<

Many of the characters in both the Honorverse and Safehold are indeed too "black or white", on both the friendly and the ennemy sides. Skipping the chapters on their points of view is not an unreasonnable way to improve reading experience, especially for the church official for Safehold where the systematic retelling of events prevents any loss of information anyway.

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