OverthinkingMadMan t1_j1nttp0 wrote
Reply to comment by throwhand1 in The Bible has inspired an immense body of beautiful music (Christmas, classical, etc.) What are some other examples of works of fiction that have inspired great music? by upvoter1542
God is omnipotence, knows everything we will ever do, but somehow our wills are free.
- Atheism isn't an ideology. You are atheist about every other God than your own. Do you follow on ideology about none belief in all of those? Do you believe in lizard people walking among us, or are you in an ideology that is specifically about a non belief in those lizard people? When it comes to soviet union, which is the only real argument you have (not even close to 150 million, so you need some sources there) they killed religious believers to try and make the focus the state, and not religion. They tried to make the state take the place of religion. I am willing to grant you that they did it because of "atheism", but then you will have to grant that all deaths by the hands of any Christian nation is done by Christian beliefs. The slave trade, both sides of both world wars, pretty much all wars that any Christian nation has been in. Because then we would be comparing them comparatively. If not, then the soviet union didn't do it to further atheism.
1.1 not to mention that Christianity has helped spread polio, aids and other diseases, with the pope and other religious leaders making statements about condoms being wrong and so forth. Many diseases that we have cures for have spread because religious beliefs, generally Abrahamic ones, have spread their doctrine. There have also been major backlash and protests against scientists creating cures, since God ead the only one that could heal and everything else is against God and what is natural. One can only guess about how many that kind of sabotage has killed. 1.2 the US often segues that it spreads Christian ideas like freedom and democracy. The arguments used by the US foreign wars are often very close to what people argue about the soviet union. That means that in the 90s Christianity killed more than 500 000 children, just in Iraq. Of course, if one beliefs there were other motivations for the attacks, then those aren't counted against Christianity. Then you will have to remove the millions in soviet as well, since they are both just as tied to religion. There are many more examples though and not only done by the US. 1.3 genocide of Jews and other groups inside Christian nations. There were massive ones in what is now Russia or/and Eastern Europe. There are genocides in the Middle East even now. Muslims killing Muslims. Christians killing Muslims. Muslims killing Christians. 1.4 the dark ages and persecution of those that held different, correct beliefs about the world was prevalent. Some argue that Christians helped with science and that a lot of science was mainly done by Christians in the middle ages. While true, that doesn't really hold. All the farming was done by Christians as well as all building, crimes, heroic deeds and so forth. Those were the only people around, since anything else could mean death. Newton stopped with his thinking and trying to figure out the world at quite an early age. Why? Because if God created the universe, then there couldn't be any more to explain. Explaining more would be blasphemy.. Just imagine the countless deaths keeping us 200 years in the past will have brought with it. 1.5 the prohibition gave us the mafia, drug cartels and tens of millions of dead over the last 100 years. It was mainly the idea if Christian interest groups.
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Mein Kamf speaks favorably about Christianity and Hitler was against atheism. Hitler said that everyone believes in God. While Hitler later on in his "career" thought that the state was what should take the place of the belief in God. You also cannot avoid that Hitler made multiple speeches where he talked about God and praised him. So while his stance on God changed, his stance on atheism being the worst didn't. Also his whole deal about the Jews is a common Christian belief up until ww2. Colleges in the US voted Hitler as the best European thinker, above Einstein. The pope had favorable things to say about th rhetoric used (until the wars started at least)
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Seems to me you need to read the Bible more. Leveticus says the following: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves" "You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly" So you can buy slaves and your children can inherit them. The slaves just need to be from a different religion. Some argue that the word slave is wrong and that they are bondsmen. Well, bondsmen are not inherited by your children and they are not slaves for lives.. There are a great many more passages about slaves in the Bible. Even a passage about how you can make you countrymen into slaves for life as well! On of the US states quoted the Bible for why they went into open revolt and why keeping slaves was a good thing! Now, they also used the Bible to argue against slavery, but they just had to skip all the positive to slavery parts. Did you know that a lot of the laws about slavery in the US was taken from the Bible? Some southern states even found the Bible to be to harsh, so they made softer rules. There are some great articles and videos that go through all of this. If you don't think the Bible is pro slavery, then you either haven't read it or ignores what it says.
And again: atheism is the lack of belief in any deity. If you believe the lack of belief in God leads to sin, then you will have to have atheism grouped with all other religions. Being an atheist says nothing about your moral beliefs one way or another. Grouping ahtiests is like grouping everyone that doesn't have green as their favorite color into one group. Do you imagine they have a lot in common? You should also check yo some facts. The least religious countries in the world are among those with the least crime, the best health, are the happiest, least murders and generally have higher well being. Now look to the most religious. More death, lower living standard and well being.
Edit: forgot one thing. Most Germans were Christian. So even when Hitler went from Christian to just having respect for Christians, the monstrosities were still done by Christians
throwhand1 t1_j1o2znp wrote
>Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves" "You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life
Here's the thing... Slavery was a common practice long before the Mosaic Law was established. Therefore, the Law never instituted slavery nor ended it; rather it regulated it. In other words, in Leviticus, it merely mandated the proper treatment of slaves. Summary: Hebrews could sell themselves into slavery for six years as a form of indentured slavery as I mentioned before. Slaves were treated well and could be set free on the 7th year.
Hebrews could also take Gentile slaves whenever they conquered the lands. In the non-Christian lands that had slaves, they treated them cruelly. However, the Law gave slaves basic rights and allowed them to marry, etc.
I appreciate your comments and believe we both made some good points. Only a fool would argue with an atheist, since they are stubborn and cannot face the proposition that a higher Being created this beautiful universe. I believe all people are created equal and think we should strive to be more compassionate and loving to everyone in the coming year. Have a good day.
OverthinkingMadMan t1_j1pai26 wrote
No one has said that there wasn't slavery before the Bible. It only proves that our morals now are better than what we see in the Bible. It isn't like the new testament went against slavery either. So with not condemning slavery and instead said it was okay, God kept slavery around for another 2000 years. You are mentioning slaves that were set free after 7 years. That were only Hebrew slaves. As I mentioned, non Hebrew slaves were not set free and were slaves for life. And yes, slaves could marry, but on the 7th year when they were set free, they could not take their wife with them! The Bible mentions however that they could beg to become slaves for life, so that they could stay with their wife.
One also needs to remember that the US has slave laws based on what the Bible said. Would you have wanted to be a slave in the US? Was that moral? You mentioned that everything that was right is now wrong. Well, slavery is right in the Bible. No matter if it was around before the Bible or not. There is no "thou shall not hold slaves". We got to that one despite the Bible, not because of it.
There might be that the Bible gave us some nice foundations over 1000 years ago. Though our morals today are far better than the Bible. Again, just look at slaves, the treatment of honosexuals, the treatment of women and more. Christianity paved way for medicine and school, the same way that the major religion in any region did so. When everyone is religious, then only religious people can do something. We do however have evidence that Christianity held back, not advanced, a lot of medicine and science. To this day, thousands die each week in Africa because Christian and Muslim groups are against medicine. You are not allowed to ignore the facts of the world, and say that "sometimes it did good". Just as you cannot ignore they the Germans in ww2 were Christians. I would not say their Christian belief is what drove them, but you seem eager to say anything good a Christian does is proof of the good of Christianity. Well, then you have to look at it the other way as well.
You have such arrogance and hubris, which seems common in many religious. You are certain that you are right, though giving factually wrong points without sources. I will write the following in the same style you answered me, and you can judge yourself: Only a fool would argue with a theist. They are stubborn and diluted and have not even read their own holy text. They cannot face the proposition that they are responsible for their own morality and action and have to blame it on a higher being. Maybe one day you will ponder the meanings of life and find the truth. That is the style you write
I agree with the created equal part. Which is why I'm glad we, dispite the Bible, have given equal rights to women, have laws that treat honosexuals equally and more. Women are allowed to be themselves, not timid, silent and submissive. Only as the world has become more secular have we opened up to give other people equal rights and the ability to do what they want and not punish them. To again use your voice: Christians seem blind to the fact that what we call morals today is found outside of the Bible and are ignorant on purpose to the fact that their Bible is immoral. The laws we had, as more religious nations and based on belief, are seen by most as immoral. The hubris with saying that others refuse to see your belief because they are stubborn, and not for the fact that it is immoral and lacks evidence, will just drive more people away. Calling out the character of the other person instead of arguing the points, is a sure way to make it seem like your arguments aren't worth anything
throwhand1 t1_j1qgzic wrote
Despite some of the things you may say, I still find the Bible to be as relevant and timely as ever before. I can see that this conversation is going no where but appreciate your time and honesty. For the record, I don't condone slavery and believe everyone should be treated equal. I am proud of my Christian heritage and know that in the end times, I will be hated and mocked. But that is fine too. Secularism to me is the shunning of morals in exchange for ethics, which are loosely based on Christ-based principles but with the denial of His Name and divinity. But that's another debate for another day. No hard feelings.
OverthinkingMadMan t1_j1qikm4 wrote
Glad to know that you condone slavery and that your morals, or ethics if you want, is better than then that of God and the bible.
If you believe that you need God for there to be morals, then you can call the behavior ethics if you want. The fact that you think acting decently comes from Christ, then it will come to a shock to you that many of our morals are shared with people that are not from western countries. Buddhism for example. You might need God to watch over you and the fear of hell to act morally, but I, and many others (different religions and without religion) do not need it. I deny any God, or person, that threatens to get love, that has stoning for homosexuality, tells women to be inferior to men and who doesn't condone slavery. You are free to say that since I lack God, you won't call it morality. Well, I still say that things in the bible are looked upon as, if not immoral, then let us use words like evil. If there cannot be evil without God, well then it is unjust, cruel, untrue and vile.
Since the secular countries are the happiest and with the least crime, then the shunning of morals seems to make us better people, care more for those around us, take better care of the planet and act as what Christians call better people. Then it might seems that shunning morals is what is best for society and the planet at large.
throwhand1 t1_j1ql20e wrote
You are welcome to your opinions and secular mindset. However, I think it's a terrible travesty that people are shunning Jesus Christ in exchange for plastic, materialism, and hedonism. Unfortunately, there will be more crime, since everything is permissible under the sun when people don't submit to God. In the coming decades, you will see that the Secularization Theory is failing and isn't working out as atheists have predicted. We both have said our fill and I am done here. Please have a nice day and stay safe.
OverthinkingMadMan t1_j1qo9ej wrote
There will be more crime? When? The trend is that there is less crime the more secular a country is. Everything statistics shows us the opposite and your whole argument is "it won't last"? Secularism has given us the democracy we have today. Kings were chosen by God. The US is a great example, since they strived to keep God and Government seperate.
We have so far seen that religious countries give rise to dictatorships. The peace we have had the last 80 years and the spread of democracy is because of secular beliefs.
It might be that countries that are more atheistic will be worse in 30 years. That just proves that neither religion or secularism works. As it stands, secularism is the better choice and has given us a more peaceful society.
throwhand1 t1_j1qp9v4 wrote
Hmm... crime and religion are somehow correlated? I think that's yet to be determined, but who knows. Anyway, you do you. Thanks for your time.
OverthinkingMadMan t1_j1qqjz1 wrote
You just said that crime would go up because of atheism and now you are debunking your own claims?
I was showing you that YOUR claim isn't valid, since what we actually do see is the opposite, and now you say that they aren't correlated.
Since there isn't a correlation and most people would say that most laws are morally good, then that means that your claim about atheist not being moral also comes into question.
That is some massive backpeddling.
throwhand1 t1_j1qr0ig wrote
lol! Honestly, I think your information about crime and religion being correlated has too many variables and is yet to be determined. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that it's probable, but I don't know if it's 100% correct. That's all I will say about the issue. Thanks.
throwhand1 t1_j1o3jrh wrote
I simply don't understand why Christianity is regarded nowadays as a vile and outdated religion? It has paved the way for nonprofit organizations, medicine, schools, loving our neighbors and enemies, and instilling peace and compassion. Is that so wrong? It has promoted things that were ahead of its time (including the equality between man and woman, Hebrew and Gentile) and is still used in businesses and organizations today. The corporate social responsibility model and corporate stewardship are loosely based on helping our fellow man. For the sake of etiquette, I bid you a good day. Merry Christmas. Maybe one day you will ponder its meaning and what it really means. Thanks.
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