I don’t know what’s supposed to be so great about it. All the magic and joy of The Hobbit was gone. Past Rivendell, I felt an oppressive sense of bleakness that couldn’t be lifted.

I'm just going to focus on Fellowship here...

Fog on the Barrow-Downs is my favorite chapter. Legit horror elements there. While I'm sad that it's not in the movie, I definitely understand why it couldn't be.

I agree with you in regards to The Council of Elrond. Sooo dense and really fleshes out the world to the point that it feels full and lived in. I can read that over and over and still glean some new details.

The Bridge of Khazad-dum is the shortest chapter but it is paced to perfection. Plus it has the "doom doom" drums and one of my favorite lines of imagery in the book: "Black drops dripped from the blade and smoked on the floor".

It’s still one of the best books in the fantasy genre and one of the few modern classics that I love. I’m still annoyed that this kind of hopeful story is now only found in either plotless fluff, YA, or gamelit books.,

That's kind of the point, isn't it?

For those that haven't: read The Silmarillion (after reading LotR) and then reread LotR. It slaps completely different.

Given how other people talk of how uplifting they find the ending, I doubt it.

I recently re-read it and think it holds up. I read it with a mind to what it said of the world that Tolkien was born into, a Victorian world of Empire, Industry and Change, a world at a peak and on the cusp of great calamity, but also of quiet beauty and optimism.

I agree with you on the Council of Elrond. Passages like this: “This quest may be attempted by the weak with as much hope as the strong. Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.’” 👌

Also this from The Return of the King, The Last Debate: “Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule.” 👍

I listened to a good little podcast about the author and the ‘history’ of the novel. I didn’t pick up on all of the references to old Norse and Saxon stories. I’ll put a link below. The Rest is History, J R R Tolkien: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-rest-is-history/id1537788786?i=1000577613968

I think the journey is the point. And the journey takes you from the quiet peace and beauty of The Shire through to some very dark places, but all so you can return again in the end. No matter how bad it gets, something good survives. Sounds a bit trite, I know, but it is after all a Hero’s Journey and this template has been used and reused countless times over countless generations.

But the thing about journeys is you don’t return the same in the end. Sometimes the journey breaks something inside you and >!like Frodo returning to The Shire, nothing is ever the same, he can’t settle back into the old routines and decides instead to leave it all behind.!< Perhaps that’s how a soldier feels when returning from war? A feeling Tolkien was all too familiar with.

God literally wins in LotR. Evil is destroyed and banished, men are renewed in strength. It’s uplifting.

I don't feel as uplifted by the defeat of evil in a desolate, declining world.

the book? nah. The move is, because they changed it. But the book is laced with melancholy, because the world is irrevocably changed, the war even ravaged the Shire and the hobbits don't have the same idyllic "home" to return to.

For a generation. Then the fall resumes as the last of the old world dies. There is no God in these books or anything Tolkien himself published.

Nope. They fight in spite of the fact that they world they are fighting for is not going to survive the conflict.

When I first read LotR, I was very young, 11 or 12, and the Moria section was terrifying.

I used to think Tom Bombadil was boring, but as I'm older I find that section now fascinating. It's so magical and strange. I think you have to read a little more patiently to get into it.

Their world does survive the conflict. It is not the Dagor Dagorath. Sauron is defeated. Men do win. The stage is set for the eschaton in the future but Aragorn is crowned and the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor are united.

I finished it as well for the first time, but I found the appendices more interesting. If silmarillion is more of the same, sign me up.

I know I'm the minority fantasy fan that just can not read Tolkien. I'm glad that all of the fantasy writers I like could read Tolkien and be inspired by his writing. I know that he created and defined the genre but I am just not smart enough to get his writing.

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Utterly false. By Tolkien's own words, "The Author Himself (Who is not me)" caused Gollum to slip at the Cracks of Doom.

Have you read Elizabeth Moon's fantasy novels? Worth reading imho

Silmarilion is somewhat like the Bible. Large collection of disparate content including begats. It's not for me, but try it.

The Lothlorien chapters. Omg, when I first read that, I remember just being in awe. It was some of the most beautiful writing I ever read- scenic, poetic, emotional and deep, just amazing world building. Even though I absolutely love the movies, that was the first part in the book I read where I thought “wow. The movie version of this cannot even compare to the book’s”

Thank you. Approved!

LOTR is easily one of my favorite book series of all time. I read it for the first time in my 20s, and I felt more like a child than I have in my entire life.

Fog on the Barrow-Downs is actually where I quit reading LotR. Something about that chapter just bored the daylights out of me.

> Fog on the Barrow-Downs is my favorite chapter. Legit horror elements there.

Its The Navidson Record before House of Leaves was written.

People erroneously compare The Silmarillion to the Bible. The Silmarillion is nowhere near as complex or dense as the Bible is, nor is it anywhere near as long. The Silmarillion is much more like a collection of Greek myths. All the stories in it are short, easily read, and while they interrelate you don't really have to remember very much or anything at all about the other stories because each story works on its own.

These chapters contain my favorite paragraph in all of literature:

>They followed him as he stepped lightly up the grass-clad slopes. Though he walked and breathed, and about him living leaves and flowers were stirred by the same cool wind as fanned his face, Frodo felt that he was in a timeless land that did not fade or change or fall into forgetfulness. When he had gone and passed again into the outer world, still Frodo the wanderer from the Shire would walk there, upon the grass among elanor and niphredil in fair Lothlorien.

>“The Lord of the Rings' is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out practically all references to anything like 'religion,' to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and symbolism.” ―Tolkien

God is not in one place in Lord of the Rings. God is everywhere in Lord of the Rings. The reason you can't see it is because you have no understanding of the Christian worldview generally or the Catholic worldview specifically.

The world isn't desolate. Its full of life and free peoples. Nor is it declining, though it is transforming. God's purpose for the Elves in the world has been accomplished and even the rebellious ones are returning to the fold. As a result now Men can take center stage and God's purpose in Creation of them can be fulfilled.

It's so full that the party travels hundreds of miles through uncultivated, uninhabited land, that seems like it would be fine for agriculture.

Don’t overlook the songs and poems either, there’s a huge amount of world building just in those.

The presence of wilderness is the exact opposite of desolation. Wilderness is full of life, as we see in Fellowship as they travel through rich lands full of flora and fauna, where even the trees have a form of animal-level consciousness. It is in fact beautiful and in any other circumstances (fleeing the Ringwraiths) would have been a charming and beautiful experience.

That’s one of my favorites as well :) just beautiful!

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Never heard of it. Obscure author?

You want to appreciate it in a whole other level?

Read it alongside The Atlas of Middle-earth by the amazing Karen Wynn Fonstad who died too soon. But she left a remarkable legacy for fandom.

Tolkien didn't just have a firm grasp of mythology, he understood a lot about geology. Perhaps because he based the lands of Middle-earth on real places that he'd been.

After mind-enriching and mind-blowing experience of reading LotR with the Atlas, I would never want to read LotR without the Atlas.

Super job! My siblings can't believe I reread books. There's a number of them I go over for the experience and sometimes more clarification.

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It's one of those curious phenomena of Reddit where people upvote comments containing mutually contradictory truth claims.

I’m now reading these out loud to my 13yo son (we have a tradition of reading out loud every night). I forgot how readable the language is! So easy to narrate.

It has been years since I've read through it, but I loved the chapter in Two Towers where Merry and Pippin are smoking pipe weed with Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas and tell the story of their adventures in flashback. It just is such a cool way to tell the story. I also love the chapter where Gandalf tells Frodo about the ring, chapter 2 of Fellowship I think.

I have to echo The Last Debate chapter:

> "Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule.”

I really, really wanted to get into lotr. I always get 100-200 pages in, then my brain just says “make it stop” and I just can’t read it anymore. It’s an amazing series, don’t get me wrong, but the pacing for me is terrible

some books become old friends, i reread the aubrey/maturin books every year, and have done for about twenty years now

That's lovely - you're never too old to be read to, and it's a great bond. I read them to my wife in the same way.

Don't think it's about smart. Try having it read to you - it might get you started. I don't want you to miss out. :o)

Yes! Others have made the point that a lot of what happens in the House mirrors a formal right of passage ceremony, also. Weird - and it is the fulcrum of the book, when it switches from a lighter tone to a darker.

The reason for the wilderness is the presence of evil forces - Orcs were still numerous, evil strongholds still held sway over vast tracks of open land and forest, the rule of law had declined. By the end of LotR, Mirkwood becomes Greenwood the Great, the Brown Lands can now be populated, the Kings Road is in use and peace can be made with the Easterlings, the Dunlendings and the former slaves of Mordor. The melancholy comes from the decline and return of the Elves and that Frodo himself can no longer live here - the Shire has been saved, but not for him. He is broken by his loss, his injuries and his survivor's guilt.

As it should be. If it's friendly and well-argued disagreement, that should be encouraged. Have we not seen enough poisonous polarisation in the world?

It appears to be the same people upvoting two comments putting forward theses that cannot both be true.

> If it's friendly and well-argued disagreement, that should be encouraged.

"Upvote anyone who disagrees with the one person I don't like" is a pretty poisonous attitude towards debate.

Yep - and worth mentioning that both Tolkien and Frodo had survivor's guilt in bucket loads. >!Boromir and especially Gollum - and that Frodo at the last fails, and the agent for the mission's success should be one that also failed, but died.!<

Upvote both, if it's well-argued and friendly. Applaud both sides.

What are you talking about? This is a case of "applaud sides two and three because fuck the first one."

This is on top of the fact that people in this thread upvoted the comment telling me "Its utter stupidity... That kind of extra-literal over interpretation is also absolutely moronic... I guess, in review, I'm not surprised you tried to make a red herring fallacy. Nothing else you've said makes sense. Why should you start making sense now. Just don't expect anyone to take your poorly thought out and easily disproven arguments seriously."

Just scrolled through, and realise yours was the heftily-downvoted comment - understand now. I think you're also irritated by the thread that is now entirely deleted - which I couldn't see. Your first comment is right, though - the chapter, "The Ring goes South" really is tough. It takes a downturn before then - as soon as they leave Tom Bombadil's House, it turns much darker, even, than the darkest parts of the Hobbit. I love the Hobbit and hated what the films tried to do to it, while loving the bits that were true to the story. But The Hobbit was a children's book - Lord of the Rings really isn't.

Happy to discuss this, free of acrimony and downvotes if you want.

Edit: going out for a New Year's Eve walk now. Don't let the bastards grind you down.

You tap out early.

Dang I’ve been downvoted for not feelin part of a book in a subreddit where not continuing a book because you’re not liking it is an actual suggestion

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One of my favourites - although I could not have got through it without the tip about skipping the poems/songs. Maybe I am a superficial reader, but I just couldn’t get through them all..

I’ve found him boring for 45 years.

Would you discourage starting with The Silmarillion if one hasn't read either?

Thanks for the input

Council is great. It's the moment where you realize that Tolkien's world is so young, that the entire universe's creation is still within living memory.

I think that's the point of Tolkien writing Tom that way. Peaceful happy times often feel exactly like that. Reading it as a child it felt really boring but looking back on it now. The best times in life are often quite predictable, consistent and filled with people talking about quite normal boring things. That when you're a child you kinda take for granted. Civilized society is honestly magical compared to the barbaric nature of most human history. I think the magic of Bombadil is revealed when you have the patience. Tom is the contrast from that last safe part of the world to the rest of the dark dangerous one.

There's a reason the saying "may you live in interesting times" is a known curse.

No I'm actually I think you're being downvoted because this is a post about your favorite chapters of the book, and you decided to comment on how much you hate it. It's just you're harshing the vibe of what we're all talking about here.

"Hey this is my favorite thing!"

" I hate your favorite thing."

So in terms of definitionally the purpose of downvoting, your comment does not contribute meaningfully to the conversation. I'm sorry you're upset though

Watch the 3 lotr movies and/or read the lotr books first. Silmarillion is much more into the world/universe building. It helps to have some very developed characters, even a thousand years later, as a grounding to the family trees and new characters of Silmarillion.

I would, yes.

I obviously wasn’t trying to be ugly. No reason for you to be.

It's rare an author can make fantasy feel like history. But he's one of them.

In TTT I always skip the second half.

I did too, rereading this made me feel dumb. I really struggled with the way it was written. the archaic english style was tough. I missed so much in the council of elrond for some reason. I think the quotes in side quotes confused me.

I wouldn't necessarily discourage it, but it might be a tough read. Many people read and consume the silmarillion because they are motivated to continue living inside middle earth after finishing the Lord of the Rings and absolutely loving it. If you don't have that motivation, you may have difficulty maintaining interest in reading these ancient myths of a world that you don't have a connection to

Yeah my mind is blown that he wrote with such detail that a geographer could create an atlas, and even show the daily itineraries of people on their journeys. And I agree it really does make an amazing reading companion to have these super detailed maps along with you as you read.

Hands down the most fulfilling, inspiring, and moving piece of literature I've ever read.

Right? I've read The Mob Doctor, IT and Carrie a few times. Thinking about giving the Godfather series another run as well.

I'm in the middle of re-reading Lord of the Rings at the moment. It's been about a decade between each re-read. What I find fascinating about the book is how I've taken away very different (but enjoyable) experiences each time I've read it.

Reading it as a teenager, the excitement and adventure dominated, and I was probably more interested in characters like Frodo and Aragorn. As I've aged, I've found more depth in the book, more complexity... and eventually come to see Sam as more interesting and heroic than I ever did as a teenager.

It's just interesting to me how much the book has different things to say, depending on one's life experience when reading it.

I think it's a valid perspective, though. Everytime I re-read LotR, I remember I have to slog through 2 Bombadil chapters that have little relevance to the rest of the book. They're not exactly my favorite chapters either.

I read a description of LOTR a long time ago that stuck with me: "British tourists in a Norse fairy tale." I thought that summed it up pretty well - but of course there's so much more to say because the books are, as you say, wonderful. It just kinda hops over that part.