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shebeogden t1_j29fkg0 wrote

Reply to comment by ManyCats247 in Does Don Winslow introduce endless female characters just to write explicitly about their bodies and sex lives? by hammnbubbly

Make sure you have Jim Butcher and all his Dresden books on that list. Nipples, thighs, and ass are what his female characters are made of. Regardless of age or relationship with characters.

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King_of_Cold26 t1_j2a625m wrote

This goes outside the realm of opinion and into straight up falsehood. There are many female characters that have depth, that dresden does not comment on sexualy. Charity Carpenter comes to mind. The books are narrated from the perspective of the main character. He states himself that it is a flaw in his character. It gets much better as the series goes on. It's not bad writing, it's character development. If you don't believe me, read his other works. This issue is completely gone from it.

I'm so tired of hearing this view from people that think every sexual description of a woman is misogynistic. Most of the characters that are described sexualy are actively using it as tool to manipulate people around them. Context matters. Every time people like to point out as over sexualized is either a character flaw of the protagonist, or someone using sex appeal as a manipulation.

The books are great and while they are far from perfect they have a awsome story and some of the best characters. Don't let people like this idiot stop you from enjoying good series.

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fluvicola_nengeta t1_j2afb3b wrote

It's honestly a concerning issue how so many people no longer seem capable of differentiating character from author, and not enough people are talking about this. The number of people who can read and write perfectly fine but aren't literate is growing alarmingly, and this has a much bigger chance of putting literature in a bad place than "those damn phones and the internet" ever did.

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Anathos117 t1_j2aj7qu wrote

> It's honestly a concerning issue how so many people no longer seem capable of differentiating character from author

I had the temerity to suggest that what an author writes isn't indicative of their personal character. You can now find my comment buried at the bottom under a pile of downvotes.

People aren't just not talking about this, they're actively hostile to the notion.

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owarren t1_j2ahc99 wrote

I had someone tell me that GRR Martin was a piece of garbage because of Ramsay Bolton. Blew my mind.

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fluvicola_nengeta t1_j2b0kya wrote

On this very thread we have someone calling Nabokov a pedophile. It's just insane.

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Anathos117 t1_j2b50wa wrote

> On this very thread we have someone calling Nabokov

If you actually read both sentences in my comment you'll see that I was literally saying the opposite.

You need to work on your reading compensation.

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fluvicola_nengeta t1_j2b5n89 wrote

Fair enough. But in my defense it wasn't too much of a reading comprehension thing. As soon as I read statements like that I skip the rest of the comment and move on with my life because after a while it gets exhausting. That's my bad either way.

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Anathos117 t1_j2be3xl wrote

> As soon as I read statements like that I skip the rest of the comment

How could you possibly read the phrase "that famous pedophile Nabokov" and not pick up on the sarcasm? Nabokov isn't famous for being a pedophile.

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fluvicola_nengeta t1_j2dluld wrote

I don't think he is. Lots of people have been saying that he is, though. The very people I was complaining about in my original comment, in fact, so we both need to work on our reading comprehension. Despite my apology, you seem intent on nitpicking things to object to, though, so I'm peacing out of this exchange. Happy new year.

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sleeper_medic t1_j2ag6ks wrote

I hate books with sex in them in general. I really really hate books where most or all women are objectified ceaselessly.

I love books warnings about that because it saves me time, money, and frustration.

If that’s the sort of book you like, more power to you.

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cpt_tusktooth t1_j2akbp4 wrote

You dont read romance novels?

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sleeper_medic t1_j2akv0c wrote

Not if I can help it. At least not in the typical sense. I don’t mind a romance subplot or something if it’s not gratuitously sexual or over the top. But I don’t read books that are overtly romantic or sexual.

My favorite book ever does have a romance subplot and a total of one (not especially graphic) sex scene. But for most of the book the MCs partner is dead and she is trying to figure out what happened to him.

Bodice rippers and what not? Are not for me.

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Waywoah t1_j29hd6h wrote

Fortunately, he seems to have grown as the stories have continued (which makes sense, considering the first one was written as a college student) and cut that stuff way down.
That said, I can certainly understand someone not wanting to read the earlier stuff to get to that point.

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shebeogden t1_j29mvbz wrote

I kept getting told that so I read 15 books of the series. It toned down in the way that felt like it was just to stop the whining. But it was still a bunch of women titting boobily into the room. Every female that entered the scene was evaluated by her sexuality and availability to Dresden. Every woman, even in the later novels, wanted to bone him. Nipples through every shirt. Hips suggesting things, even if the owner actively wanted to kill him. I gave up at the beginning of Peace Talks (#16). I really liked the stories but I just couldn’t anymore.

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AENocturne t1_j29vitl wrote

Lmao titting boobily

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fizzlefist t1_j29wygf wrote

So is it a booby trying to pass itself off as a tit? Or is it three tits in a trenchcoat trying to be a booby? >!Bird Humor!<

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Waywoah t1_j2amldn wrote

I get that, I would never fault someone for not reading them due to that stuff as I’m not a fan of it either. I love the books, and I understand that he keeps at least some of it in to maintain the “noir vibe”, but I’m definitely in the camp of thinking they’d be better without them.

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ArchmageXin t1_j2amw53 wrote

Dresden's character is a healthy adult male, nothing wrong noting the girl he is meeting is hot or whatever.

But he had relationships with 3 women throughout the series, and technically real relationship with only one of them. Compared to a lot of writers Dresden's life is pretty tame.

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BudgetMattDamon t1_j2a2ehh wrote

Butcher is a notable example of a writer who's actually tried to evolve past that. It's also difficult to say how much of it is Butcher and not just his depiction of Harry Dresden.

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Mad_Aeric t1_j2a7w3h wrote

Given that his other works are much better about that issue, I think it's mainly just Harry. Though what he's done with Butters definitely invokes an exasperated sigh from me.

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BudgetMattDamon t1_j2a8nrs wrote

You're right - I was actually thinking of Michael of an example of a completely different and non-sexist character written by Butcher. I liked Butters a lot but he got Flanderized hard.

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ArchmageXin t1_j2amizp wrote

> got Flanderized hard.

Is that where he got the Holy-Light-Saber, or the part banging an literal werewolf girl?

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AmnesiaCane t1_j2ansfz wrote

The in universe short stories from the perspective of other characters don't do that, even from what I recall Thomas's short story lacks any descriptions of anyone's nipples. I agree Butcher is probably inserting a degree of personal fantasy into Dresden's descriptions, but I think he's aware of it and limits it to just Dresden. And even in the main books, Dresden gets called out for that sort of behavior repeatedly, usually by female characters.

I mean, on the one hand, sexuality is literally a weapon being used by half of the things he encounters (fey, whamps, etc.), so it's no surprise Harry notices them. On the other hand, Butcher is the one who put them there, and Butcher sure likes to use sexy feminine monsters a hell of a lot more than he uses bigfoot.

If someone doesn't like sexuality in their books, Dresden Files are probably not for them, and that's ok. But that doesn't make it problematic or even just bad writing on the part of Butcher.

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Anathos117 t1_j2aqppi wrote

> On the other hand, Butcher is the one who put them there, and Butcher sure likes to use sexy feminine monsters a hell of a lot more than he uses bigfoot.

We can't really be sure he actually likes it. That's the whole problem with people extrapolating content to author character: there's no actual certainty of connection between the two. Maybe he does it because he thinks it makes the books sell better. Maybe he does it to maintain a consistent theme. Maybe he does it to upset people. There's no way to know, short of Butcher literally telling us his reasons.

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AmnesiaCane t1_j2capub wrote

Right, Butcher notoriously plays his cards to his chest and clearly doesn't enjoy giving away details about himself, his world, or his writing process to his fans at the drop of a hat. He's so inscrutable!

I'm sorry for being sarcastic, I do appreciate your point and the conversation, but come on. If you know anything at all about him, you know he definitely likes it.

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ArchmageXin t1_j2ans5t wrote

The question is, for being a Magic + Noir detective character, his sex life is actually pretty stale compared to a lot of books I read about.

It is not like the dude is running an Isekai harem or something. In 15 books he had maybe 1 relationship that last more than a few months.

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BudgetMattDamon t1_j2atm9h wrote

That's actually a point I hadn't considered, but it makes sense.

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ArchmageXin t1_j2avkpa wrote

Plus, a lot of time he mention "boob and tits" is from a noir Chicago detective point of view, which give him the old, politically incorrect type of character. (As opposed to say, Michael Carpenter or Butters).

So what if he notice the Queen of Air and Darkness have a nice ass? You can sue him :P

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lunatics_and_poets t1_j2bcmum wrote

He created Harry Dresden though? These character do not simply emerge from the mind fully formed. At every stage, the author makes choices on what kind of character they want to create and the tone they want to set for their series. Everything is a choice for AND against something.

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Anathos117 t1_j2bepns wrote

Sure, but authors can and generally do depict characters with different values and personalities than their own. Authors also create the villains in their stories; do you assume that they are indicative of the authors' character?

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Electronic_Basis7726 t1_j2cn2ft wrote

Is depiction always endorsment for you?

And just to set the stage, I think Dresden books go overboard with the description of women.

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NeedsMaintenance_ t1_j2beun5 wrote

I agree with you, and I've definitely had moments where I've questioned the necessity of something Butcher has thrown into Harry's narrative to us.

That said, it has gotten better and so I think since such a big part of your point is that authors make their choices for and against things, it's only fair to point out that Butcher has made the choice to do better, and not sexualize characters as much.

The other thing is that Harry has a darker half, an alter-ego that we don't know tons about yet and apparenty will in Mirror, Mirror, but it's there; of impulse and drives and darkness. I suspect that Harry's rage and his lust problems are going to bite him in the ass soon, which is probably building towards a narrative of "these flaws of Harry's hurt him and those around him", just like they do to a person in real life. I think we're building towards realistic consequences for Harry's toxic traits.

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gregnog t1_j2a7obm wrote

Huh? I need to take this sub with a hefty grain of salt if this comment is getting upvotes. Ridiculous.

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hardcider t1_j2ag45l wrote

Any sub that grows large enough is bound to give traction to silly ideas. Always healthy to be skeptical.

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selectiveyellow t1_j2aleh0 wrote

Butcher is kind of shooting himself in the foot here, where the genre he's bouncing off of is largely sexist and he's playing into it. So yeah, it's a bit, but it's also a bit much.

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platoprime t1_j2ampsd wrote

Sure but there's a difference between not liking it and judging it.

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selectiveyellow t1_j2avvvj wrote

Is there?

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platoprime t1_j2axkdo wrote

Yes.

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selectiveyellow t1_j2axovj wrote

Is there tho?

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platoprime t1_j2b34k2 wrote

I guess there isn't if you can't read so as far as you're concerned no.

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selectiveyellow t1_j2b556q wrote

I don't think there is, I think the difference is diplomacy and semantics. People who dislike it dislike it because they are judging it through that lens. So the difference between dislike and judgement is how you perceive the person complaining about it views the readers who enjoy the series. So it's not dislike of the work vs. judging the author, it is probably more so dislike of the work vs. you feeling judged.

Same thing happened with the Orson Scott Card controversy, lots of emotional meltdowns to be seen of people defending their enjoyment of his works. Not that this is all that similar, I do believe that Jim Butcher makes Dresden an ass on purpose and is not himself a hardboiled misogynist.

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ManyCats247 t1_j29gs3m wrote

Yuck. Thanks for the advice, I'll update my list!

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AmnesiaCane t1_j29le1d wrote

They're noir detective novels written from the perspective of a character with outdated views on women, the author's other writings (even the occasional short stories from the perspective of other characters in universe, many of which are from the perspective of said women) aren't written that way (with a few early-on exceptions). The female characters are actually really great, they're interesting and multi-faceted, it's just the first thing the narrator notices about them because he's a horndog.

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Adverlation t1_j2a13cw wrote

They're parodies of noir detective novels. Later books while the parody is still present, it takes itself more seriously because he wrote to just about every parody.

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Lebo77 t1_j29kdka wrote

As a fan of the Dresden books I have to say I disagree with the poster above. Many of the female characters are deeper than that.

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cthulhubert t1_j2ac750 wrote

Yeah, I feel like this is starting to turn into one of those things where there's a kernel (well, maybe more than a kernel) of truth, but it's blown out of proportion by a critical feedback loop.

Like it is a legitimate criticism of the books! Dresden is diegetically shallow and focusing on women's bodies and Butcher puts a lot of sexy women in the books. And I hate that people act like the sexism being diegetic or part of the noir detective tropes cancel those facts out; they're still choices the author made, and those choices are going to have a negative impact on many readers! But people are getting very un-measured about those criticisms, and act like it's as thoroughly drenched in misogyny as much worse offenders. His female characters are often badasses and have agency and interiority that the honestly shitty writers don't give women.

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Griffen_07 t1_j2ak3pi wrote

That still don’t mean Dresden is a book I’m ever going to recommend. It just means that Butcher is not a completely horrible writer. The Dresden books are still middling under a deep layer of crap. I bounced off after Harry wanted good boy points for not having sex with his best friend’s daughter who was put in his care. He is a creep and was written to be a creep.

I’ve dropped books for less. Dresden at least avoids rape which puts it above a good chunk of books like Pern and the dragon roofies.

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zerombr t1_j29s0cs wrote

Many are, but like white night is pretty bad. No less than three characters had this intro

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Lebo77 t1_j29zu3k wrote

The books are written from Harry's perspective. Harry is often a sexually frustrated heterosexual male often encountering supernaturally (litterally) attractive women. It's not shocking those are tge sorts of things he notices.

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NotACockroach t1_j2a2mlc wrote

What is shocking is his extreme awareness of when his friend's teenage daughter may or may not have started wearing a training bra.

Most humans divide life into child, teenager and adult. Dresden divides girls live into no bra, training bra and regular bra.

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surnik22 t1_j29uuth wrote

Ya, I’d also disagree.

The big part like other have mentioned is it’s a Noir detective series written from the thoughts a ~25 year old man (at the start) who has almost no “dating life”. Later books when the pov matures and short stories from other perspectives (including a dog) are way different.

Also it’s a fantasy series and he is regularly interacting with literal sex vampires, magically beautiful Fae, and more. Pointing out the attraction and how you have to fight to stay focused while dealing with them is part of the plot.

That said, it also isn’t perfect. There are still some time where it goes a bit overboard in my opinion

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Zora74 t1_j2a4k14 wrote

If you like the Dresden series but not the doughy main character or the objectification of all beings female, you should try Jordan Castillo Price’s Psycops series. A lot of similarities, none of the misogyny. The main character is a mediium who ends up working as a homicide detective because of his paychic ability and despite his lack of coping abilities, so when we meet him he is alone, abusing drugs, and suffering from a lot of untreated PTSD. The character undergoes a lot of growth and develops healthy relationships and constructive coping mechanisms but always stays in character. Warning for some very explicit m/m sex scenes.

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that-john-kydd t1_j2a7ddo wrote

This is why I stopped reading the series. 7 books in and just got to be too much.

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zerombr t1_j29ruy3 wrote

Yeah his earlier work has become problematic

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StarkestMadness t1_j2anu86 wrote

It's silly that you're getting downvoted for saying this. Look, I'm a massive Dresden fan, and I have been since I was a teenager. I bought the collector's edition statue when it came out a few years ago. If you could look at my subreddit hours, I'm sure the amount spent on r/dresdenfiles would be concerning.

But to blithely ignore the series's problems is equally concerning. The fact that the female characters are also well-realized and developed doesn't change the fact that Harry, inter alia, has commented on more than one underage woman's attractiveness. Even Small Favor, which I see as a turning point in the series's maturity, has a scene when Harry comments on an adolescent Ivy's body. I honestly don't know if I'd recommend the series to anyone in 2022. The farthest I might go is to say "start at Book 10."

Edit: grammar

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zerombr t1_j2ao4ws wrote

It's okay. I bear no hate for it. They love the books too.

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