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bookdealmaybe t1_irxzd72 wrote

Reply to comment by FrustratingMangooose in The hidden transphobia in "The Art of Being Normal" by hayzulhay

I apologize, I don't see an excerpt at all.

I'm not talking about her being accepted. I'm talking about someone outing you (accidentally) with you specifically asking not to, and then being 'oh, whatever' about it. That's not a reasonable thing to assume any trans person is like. That is horrifying, but 'some trans person somewhere' might be cool with it so it's okay?

So, I maybe misunderstanding you (if so, I apologize), but I can't expect a cis author to write a trans character a way that is representative of many trans people, because they're writing the minority experience?

Why write from a trans perspective at all?

Brian Katcher wrote the first ever book I read that included trans people, Almost Perfect. (Not saying it was the first ever, just the first I read). He did an amazing job for the time he was writing in (I'd say save one sentence it still holds up p well). He didn't know everything a trans person experiences, so he wrote from the POV of a cishet character who gets to know a trans character. It worked so well because he made no promise to be representative of any trans person, and yet he STILL pulled it off well.

If I write a bipoc character (am white), you can bet the expectation is that I'm going to do whatever I can to do it well, or else BIPOC people will (understandably) have negative feelings about my book, and myself.

If you write from a Point of View that you do not share, you 100% have an expectation of doing it well. Miss Williamson did not do it well, which is more egregious considering she worked with trans kids. She had every chance to get it right, and it's still wrong.

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Parts of it can be explained away as 'oh, maybe some trans kid somewhere may have dealt with it like this', but when 90% of the book has to be explained away because trans people can't relate to trans characters, maybe the problem's not on the trans peoples' side.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_iry49oy wrote

The thing is, what trans person has had an ideal coming-out story? Not many. How many trans people have come out, and people were okay with that? How many times do you see people calling out a trans individual? A lot. Kate’s experience—while different—still shows that this is an experience that many, many trans individuals experience. The reaction she has is reasonable within the context of that. It will not be the reaction everyone wants, but it is still reasonable. She said she was not okay to the readers, despite the dialogue suggesting otherwise. We knew she was not okay, and that is a reasonable reaction for a trans individual.

Since the excerpt was never sent, I recommend reading page ~945 until the chapter’s ending. She did not seem okay with her friends calling her out (if you want to call it that).

Yes, you cannot expect a cis author to be able to put themselves in our shoes and walk in them. They might be able to put themselves in that perspective, but their feet do not fit, so they cannot walk in them.

Also, I already said I would have preferred a trans author because of that, but I recognize the efforts, and I do not think she was writing with hidden transphobia. I specifically mention hidden transphobia because the OP made it seem as if the author had an ulterior motive. She was writing with hidden transphobia but was not malicious. Does that make sense to you? How can you not be malicious if you are transphobic? You hiding it means nothing. That is why I say the author was not transphobic, and she wrote the book well. No one has to agree with me, but the OP had some terrible takes.

And yes, I would have equally high expectations if you wrote about my Black experience, but if know you are white and writing from my experience, then I cannot have those expectations cloud how I read your book. If you write something that is not of the Black experience, then yes, I will call you. I can call you out for it without calling you a racist; similarly, if someone wrote about my trans experience poorly, I will call them out. I can do it without calling them transphobic.

No matter what, an author who has lived the experience will always write better. We know this, but allowing others outside of the community to help represent us is equally okay—as long as it does not harm us and paint us as horrible individuals. I do not think the author did that. If I felt that the author wrote us horribly, I would agree with you, but I do not see how the author was doing anything the OP suggested.

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bookdealmaybe t1_iry8yq9 wrote

>Since the excerpt was never sent, I recommend reading page ~945 until the chapter’s ending. She did not seem okay with her friends calling her out (if you want to call it that).

I will concede this point on the virtue that I lost my copy a few months ago, and cannot look it up. It's possible (if not probable) I may have missed or misremembered something.

>Yes, you cannot expect a cis author to be able to put themselves in our shoes and walk in them. They might be able to put themselves in that perspective, but their feet do not fit, so they cannot walk in them.

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I'm not expecting them to be perfect. I'm expecting them to be 'close enough'. The Art of Being Normal got a lot wrong. That's not close enough by any stretch of the imagination. If you're choosing to write from a trans person's perspective, I'm gonna take it as you saying 'Hey, I know enough about what I'm talking about to do this justice'.

If you fail at it, you might as well be writing the story for clout for the good you do.

>I specifically mention hidden transphobia because the OP made it seem as if the author had an ulterior motive.

This (and the next paragraph) I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree on. I do not believe having transphobic thoughts or biases innately make people transphobic. I think it makes them flawed, definitely room to grow in trans issues, but not innately a bad person.

>No matter what, an author who has lived the experience will always write better. We know this, but allowing others outside of the community to help represent us is equally okay—as long as it does not harm us and paint us as horrible individuals. I do not think the author did that. If I felt that the author wrote us horribly, I would agree with you, but I do not see how the author was doing anything the OP suggested.

I think we're in agreement that Miss Williamson wrote us horribly. I also agree she did not paint us as horrible individuals. I do, however, think she's harmed us. Idk what version you got of the book, but when I bought it a few years back, the crosswalk on the cover was the trans pride flag. They've changed it to the gay pride flag. That seems like a fix to a problem nobody had.

I think Kate asking Leo if he was 'in disguise' when she meant stealth (while something a kid who doesn't know any better might say) does harm us, cause as OP suggested, it makes it seem like we aren't really our gender. We're just playing pretend. I'm not gonna bring up the dress-up box, cause you do have a valid point with it no longer being a dress-up box. Hell, I even used to call my stash of clothes my dress-up clothes.

I think the impression that a trans girl going out in public dressed instantly passing and being beautiful reinforces inaccurate expectations of trans women. Sure, some trans girls (especially if they start young) can have it that easy, but after puberty? Less likely. Still not perfect.

Sorry, but I can't read a book where both trans characters (even though one just started coming out) passing with very little resistance or clocking as a good representation of trans people. At best, it feels like you wanted to write a book about being trans without any of the struggles with being trans.

You can claim that someone somewhere had it that easy, but it's just phoning it in imo.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_iryrr49 wrote

> The Art of Being Normal got a lot wrong.

After reading the information you have provided, I will say the author could have done better as an author and trans ally, yes.

> I do not believe having transphobic thoughts or biases innately makes people transphobic.

As much as I hate using Google definitions, Google defines transphobia as “dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.” If you do this to yourself, you are, by definition, transphobic. The fact that you do it to yourself and you do not find it transphobic would be a marker of transphobia. “These are thoughts, so I can’t be transphobic, right?” If the thoughts are causing you discomfort with your trans identity due to heteronormative expectations from society, then yes, that is transphobic. I agree that it does not make anyone a nasty person, but if it is anything but transphobia, why call it internalized transphobia? Internalized transphobia does not only mean that you experience transphobia in yourself; it can also mean that you project those beliefs onto others subconsciously, which does become externalized transphobia if you do not address it.

> I do, however, think she’s harmed us.

Okay, I agree that she has harmed the community, but I still have my doubts as to how harmful they are to us. I do not remember any book with the Pride flag, but I searched for it, and I will agree that it would be more appropriate to have our flag, and it does misrepresent us if you use the Pride flag, and I cannot fathom any reason why they would change it. There is no defending that kind of misrepresentation since it takes zero effort to use our flag.

> I think Kate asking Leo if he was ‘in disguise’ when she meant stealth [...] does harm us

Okay, now this is what I wanted. I agree that this does harm us because saying “I disguise” has different implications than using “stealth.” Although the author cannot use “stealth” because what child knows that, right? She can leave it out and not have it affect the plot. You are right.

I agree that passing stems from transphobia. There is an air of expectation that we have to be passing to be valid, rather than for our safety or because we want it, but I feel the book is still good. I suppose it is because I had it easy as a trans individual (well, aside from HRT being a pain in the ass) that I am more accepting. It fits closely with how my trans journey was growing up, and as a result, it describes how it felt navigating as a trans person. Not everyone will like how the author writes about us; that is okay, so you have every right to discredit a book like this.

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bookdealmaybe t1_iryseqc wrote

I'm not gonna talk about other points, cause while I may not agree with you on them, I do recognize that I may be wrong.

>Okay, now this is what I wanted. I agree that this does harm us because saying “I disguise” has different implications than using “stealth.” Although the author cannot use “stealth” because what child knows that, right? She can leave it out and not have it affect the plot. You are right.

This I want to talk about. Cause you're right, it's not unheard of for a trans kid to not know the word stealth. That's not the problem I have with it. The problem I have is that it is specifically mentioned that Kate has done a TON of research on trans issues that she has in a binder to show her parents when she decides to come out. But... she's never seen the word 'stealth' before?

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FrustratingMangooose t1_irytfc0 wrote

I don’t know; until now, I did not know what “stealth” meant, and I used to do a lot of research about trans folks. I do not know when the term became used for trans folks but growing up when you “stealth” it means you have unprotective sex without the recipient’s permission. Is it weird, yes, but not far-fetched; this could be because not even I knew what that term meant, and yes, I did have to search it up before responding because I was like, “stealth? Huh?” Considering I am 20 and had no idea, I think it is a tiny bit reasonable to assume a 14-year-old would not know.

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bookdealmaybe t1_iryu188 wrote

Yeah, I can see that since you explained it. Idk, I've known the term 'stealth' since I first learned what trans is. I do have a tendency to project my experiences onto other people, so I concede the point that she may not have heard the word before.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_iryvxhc wrote

Yeah, I had no idea what that word meant until now. I mean, I am glad I do, but I always called those specific people “toast.” Trans ghost. People who cut off ties with their trans identity and live as cisgender people after transitioning. I highly doubt anyone else called them that, but I had no term to describe them.

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bookdealmaybe t1_irywdly wrote

Well, yeah, but you had a non problematic term for it, which was the point I was initially making. Even if you didn't know 'stealth' specifically, you had a term that didn't imply trans peeps were playing pretend.

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Though, I do agree a kid might not realize 'in disguise' is problematic

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FrustratingMangooose t1_iryxtqy wrote

Yeah, I do not think a kid would know, but that does not excuse the author for writing it. She can omit it and the plot would remain the same, so you are right regardless.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_iry5ijo wrote

Regardless, while I see what you mean until the OP can explain how the author is writing with hidden transphobia and how that harms us, I will disagree for now. I think the points the OP created have more to do with that they felt unrepresented as an individual, which is okay! The OP has every right to feel that way but mixing as something that harms every trans individual—as if the author was trying to paint us horribly—that part? Yeah, I disagree. The OP has every right to feel the way they do, though.

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bookdealmaybe t1_iry73em wrote

>as if the author was trying to paint us horribly

See, this is the thing you and I disagree on. I don't think OP ever tried to claim that. That's kinda what I was getting at earlier with my internalized transphobia analogy.

Transphobia (to me) is anything that stirs negative emotion in a person related to a trans person that is for no other reason than because they're trans.

I went to get my labs done the other day, and the lab tech looked at me as if I had three heads. I don't think she meant to give me a weird look, because people as a rule try not to be rude in professional setting. Did her look harm me? No, not really. Was it a result of transphobia? Yeah.

That's what I mean when I say there's a difference between having transphobia in you vs. Being transphobic.

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People have biases in their life that they can't fully control (many of which was conditioned into them in their life by their upbringing). This is having transphobia in you.

People who try to harm people because of these biases is what (i believe) makes someone transphobic.

JK Rowling isn't transphobic cause she has biases. It's because she uses her fame and platform to punch down on trans women that checks that box.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_irys4ve wrote

I do not know what the technician was thinking, but I live in an area where professionals will look at you like you are crazy no matter what. Such is the case of living in NYC. If it was the result of transphobia, I am transphobic too because I do something similar. I remember walking into a store, and I had seen this person. I do not know their pronouns, but they had long hair and body hair and wore a dress with boots. My immediate reaction was, “oh, wow. What are they? Transgender? Non-binary? Interesting.” Yes, I continued to stare subtly, and the more I stared, the more curious I became. I met my reaction curiously, but I never had any ill-mannered response such as, “oh my God. What is that?” I never thought, “Jesus Christ. Why is a dude wearing a dress?” We cannot assume everyone will ponder with malevolence unless we become mind readers. Could she have stared at you out of transphobia, yes? Can you guarantee that was the case? Not unless you asked her. What if she liked what you were wearing? Your hair? Maybe you have beautiful eyes. I can think of a million reasons why I stare at people, and mostly because I am curious or something about them captivates me. Now, since this is your experience, I am going to say that you have right every right to say she was doing it because of transphobia, but you should also know not everyone will meet you with transphobia. It is a defensive mechanism, if you ask me, to assume everyone we meet has an issue with us but is that so? Does everyone have a problem with trans people? I do not know your journey, nor can I argue your experience, but I wanted to provide you with an alternative. Sometimes we think people are against us when it is quite the opposite.

I agree that people have biases they cannot control, but transphobia is transphobia. If you internalize it, you can equally externalize it. Regardless of how an individual expresses their transphobia, the harm it does collectively is enough. There are a lot of issues with JK Rowling that make her transphobic, which were not biases, but logical fallacies, since her arguments have since been debunked.

An example of internalized transphobia was the need to “pass.” This issue has only recently come to fruition, but it has roots in internalized transphobia because many people deemed passing as a requirement to having your trans identity verified. It was not transphobic to want your body and gender to align, but it was transphobic to make people think that your trans identity has validity if you pass. This is STILL an issue in our community and does not stop with only cisgender people.

Another issue rooted in internalized transphobia is wanting your voice to match your identity so others would feel more comfortable, which, again, has only recently come to fruition.

There are many examples of internalized transphobia that unironically coexist with externalized transphobia. Why? Because it’s transphobia. It does not matter how you express it, it is transphobic to hold those beliefs, and most examples do not only harm the person. It damages trans individuals altogether. You can call it different names and say, “well, this is [...],” but the basis of these two remains the same: transphobia. How that person expresses their transphobia will be different, but it is transphobic nonetheless. There is no shame in accepting that you are transphobic. I was transphobic, and I had to work with a therapist to unpack that. I thought saying, “well, the least I could do is pass,” and “I need to dress more femininely if I want to call myself transgender.” “I am too masculine-looking to use she/her pronouns” were acceptable. The worst offender? “Trans women cannot enter women’s spaces unless they have womanly parts.” Yes. Inevitably, while applying these beliefs to myself, I began to externally apply them to other trans individuals. Some people never do that, but all things in the dark will eventually come to light, no?

I thought it was sensible to have these views, but these are transphobic, and they not only harmed me —but also how I spoke about our community in the past likely left people with a sour taste in their mouths, which gave them more reasons to hate us. Transphobia affects everyone; it does not end with you.

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bookdealmaybe t1_iryt4zu wrote

>I am going to say that you have right every right to say she was doing it because of transphobia, but you should also know not everyone will meet you with transphobia.

No, I agree, not everyone will meet me with transphobia. Not everyone does. She looked at me like I was about to mug her, when I was just signing into my appointment. Maybe not transphobia, but balance of probability, yeah it was.

No, what I mean is even the cis people I know who support trans people (even the ones who do more than just pay lip service) have issues with trans issues. A guy at my work told someone to fuck off for calling me 'whatever that thing is' and he's knowledgeable about transition and stuff, but when he texts me, he specifically refers to me as a 'guy' and 'bro', even after I've asked him not to.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_iryug9k wrote

No, I understand what you mean. I knew someone like that. They will “support” trans people while simultaneously discarding their existence. All I was saying is keeping our minds open to both possibilities is a lot healthier than assuming everyone is against us. Some people, as you have pointed out, are downright transphobic. They try to be accepting, but we all know they would be more comfortable ignoring our existence. I have met too many people that pretend to be an ally only because “I pass as a woman.” It makes no sense. Your experience with the technician is valid, especially having more context; I would have likely assumed it was out of transphobia too.

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bookdealmaybe t1_iryv1gj wrote

Yeah, I feel <3

&#x200B;

Don't get it twisted, I'm a 'you catch more flies with honey than vinegar' type girl. I just have a tendency to keep an eye on people who I feel have a little transphobia in them (by my definition). I still treat them as sweet as I can, but I make sure I'm safe with them before I come near being alone with them.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_irywjhl wrote

No, yeah. I treat everyone with respect, but too many people abuse it. You can never know when people are going to use your identity against you, and interestingly enough, they always switch up when they find out. Hm.

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bookdealmaybe t1_irytsxc wrote

Oh, just for reference, I live in Arkansas, aka the state that currently has a law being fought in the courts on whether trans kids should be allowed hormones. So, yeah, our experiences with trans issues are probably a lot different.

Not to mention iirc, you're bipoc, so if I understand correctly, you probably have different experiences from a white trans girl even in NYC?

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FrustratingMangooose t1_iryv5dn wrote

Oh, then yeah, I would argue it is much easier to transition in NYC than in some other people. Socially, though, it is dangerous, especially for a BIPOC. I chose to transition after high school because I could not deal with the trans folk ending up in hospitals, committing suicide because of bullying, etc. It was too much for me. I did not want to end up like them, as horrible as that sounds. A lot of my internalized transphobia is a direct reflection of how people in New York viewed trans folks, so that’s what I was saying that.

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bookdealmaybe t1_iryvj4v wrote

Oh, fam (I was gonna say girl, but I'm not certain if that's correct). I am with you on that. I've known I was trans for a while but only recently started to present as myself in public, because I was terrified of coming out in the south. Kept trying to move to better places before making that leap. Idk if I'm ever gonna be able to get out of the south at this rate, so I said fuck it.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_iryxni1 wrote

A girl is fine! I am non-binary, so whatever pronouns people use are okay as long as they are respectful. I knew I was trans forever, and even though I had a good support system, it was scary transitioning. People say the medical aspect of transition is hard, but I say the social aspect is like a knife on a chalkboard.

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bookdealmaybe t1_iryyel1 wrote

Oh, frfr. I knew i was trans at like 16 or so, but even my mom admits there were signs from 3-4 years old. My dad's a baptist preacher, so it was hard to come out to them. even when i did they "supported" me in that they didn't kick me out, but i still to this day (14 years later) have to convince my dad that trans people can exist without assuming his god made a mistake

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FrustratingMangooose t1_iryzi90 wrote

I think I knew I was trans right when puberty hit, and that solidified that I was not going to be a girl. I mean, I am dramatizing it because I developed feminine features as I went through puberty, but the thought of testosterone coursing through my body was such an uncomfortable feeling that I quite literally went through half my life thinking that I can ignore it 😪

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bookdealmaybe t1_irz039x wrote

Girl, I legit think i repressed my transness, cause I remember when i was a kid i had dreams of being a girl, I dressed in secret (before i ever knew being trans was a thing). I knew something was up, but never knew what.

I remember in gym in high school being weirded out cause when we did jumping jacks a certain feature flopped against the front of my shorts. I legit phoned in jumping jacks to avoid the possibility that it might be noticable cause it made me super dysphoric.

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FrustratingMangooose t1_irz2f5h wrote

I used to do the same thing! I remember having to explain how it feels to wake up every day feeling disconnected from yourself. Every dream I had, was the person I wanted to be but had no way of becoming. It was weird that I could never picture myself as a man when people said, “where do you see yourself in ten years,” and it was so difficult to imagine myself as a man😪 Not telling people I would like to be a happy woman was like I was lying to myself

I hated P.E. for the same reasons you had. Dressing up where my (invisible, but still felt) muscles were showing and having my junk move was uncomfortable, especially since I wore tight clothing to prevent movement since I did not know what tucking was at the time. Oh, and entering the boy’s locker room? I hated it. It was so uncomfortable

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bookdealmaybe t1_irz3gff wrote

I daydream before going to bed to wind down my brain (where most of my stories start out funnily enough) and it was always a girl me. It's a wonder it took so long to click honestly!

I didnt mind the boys locker room specifically so much as the fact i had to change in front of people. i got in the habit p quick of wearing my gym clothes under my uniform so i could just slip out of the uniform, throw it in a locker and go

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FrustratingMangooose t1_irzw14m wrote

Ugh, yeah. That feeling of realization is the best, though. You finally have an answer to what was going through your head the whole time

I don’t know, maybe it was because of my school, but transphobia was disgustingly apparent, and the boys (the children within my grade) changed with the men (the people older than us; seniors), which never made any sense, but you know. Thank God I’m in college, lmao

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FrustratingMangooose t1_iryzu88 wrote

My dad was a regular one, honestly. Most of my family was more progressive than I thought, but I never told my mom that I was trans. I have no idea how she will react, but that day will come when it comes. (Sadly)

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