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mongreldogchild t1_it7h4fj wrote

Reply to comment by [deleted] in Why are black people inexistant in the fantasy/sci-fi genre by hater_first

This is arguing semantics. You know what OP meant. WHY do fantasy and sci fi and post apoc focus only on white populations? Can authors only write about other authors? Only about people of the same gender and sexual orientation as them? Why are they only interest in European populations in settings that should also call for non European populations (and maybe even exclusively non European ones)? That's the soul of the question you're dodging.

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[deleted] t1_it7hq34 wrote

I’m not dodging it at all - people write about things that interest them. There is no arbitrary list of people/culture/disabilities/hair color/ shoe size that have to be included in every story.

If I write a story based on a family in medieval Europe, it (unsurprisingly) is going to feature people that are influenced by Europeans.

Nothing is stopping people from Africa, Asia, South America, etc. to write stories based on their history/culture.

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StNerevar76 t1_it7l8id wrote

Why do you think they don't?

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[deleted] t1_it7lsk4 wrote

I would guess for the same reason writing rap music, until maybe relatively recently, isn’t something that is particular popular among white Europeans - becoming a fantasy author is just not something that is equally popular across all cultures.

No one complained 20 years ago there weren’t enough rap songs about growing up as a white kid in suburbia. They didn’t criticize Dr. Dre and Nas for not writing songs about that lol.

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mongreldogchild t1_it7i6pa wrote

>Nothing is stopping people from....

Fundamentally, wrong. There's a thousand sociological reasons for this. We see it historically with other groups for the same reason.

The choice of whites only is a choice. The interest isn't made in a vacuum and you know that.

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Noodles_Crusher t1_it7j6oq wrote

ok, I'll bite.

why aren't non white audiences supporting non white authors writing non white stories? In other words, why are people waiting for hands me down (like Disney is doing these days) instead of creating their own stories?

why are we expecting authors to create art catering to everyone?

On the same page, why is the WNBA waiting for men to watch the WNBA while women do not do that in the first place?

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mongreldogchild t1_it7jod2 wrote

Who has the money, owns the most capital to push certain stories? 🤔 Who owns the businesses that make it possible for something to become popular?

>why are we expecting authors

Why do you feel so attacked as to assume something from people asking a question? We aren't asking everything to be inclusive, we're asking why everything is exclusive.

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[deleted] t1_it7mx4u wrote

We’re you equally upset that popular rap music in the 80s and 90s didn’t tell stories about growing up in a small village in the Czech Republic?

Better go ask Nas and Dr. Dre why they won’t write songs about Europeans lol.

But let me guess - you have some convoluted reason why it is okay in one direction but not the other….

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mongreldogchild t1_it7oc2a wrote

Poetry and speculative fiction are two entirely different things.

There's a very big population of non-white people or even non-European people in the world. I'm glad that you think that representing even one of those groups who at least makes up half the global population is the same as the obscure experience of a small village in a small country in Europe.

Unfortunately for you, I am just as happy at the idea of the Czech people getting represented as any other group. You're the one who has a vested interest in defending ideologies that exclude them. :(

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TFTilted t1_it84yym wrote

It's not exclusion to be against diversity quotas. Let people write about what they want and stop worrying about representation. It really doesn't matter the way people want you to think it does. The only reason to push representation is if you have ulterior motives a la social engineering.

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theworldsucksbigA t1_it7l227 wrote

Everything is exclusive? Lmao you're just trying to find racism where there isn't any just like the OP their name is hater first, just looking for new hate. There's plenty of books that have black characters if you actually take the time to look for them instead of crying bout them not existing in the first place. Yes there's not an abundance of them but if you use some critical thinking/logical reasoning then you'll discover that vast majority of authors for those 3 genres are white. But you also got to think of what the culture is like aswell, America is predominantly white so there will of course be more white characters... go read stuff from authors of different countries.

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mongreldogchild t1_it7nm5k wrote

Greek Americans only make up 1% of the American population (I'm being generous here, as well, as I've seen as low as .5), yet I can find plenty of books that include me whether through realistic fiction, historical, science fiction, post apoc, and even societies based off of mine in fantasy. Why is my race so well represented in America when we are predominately not in America?

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theworldsucksbigA t1_it7oq38 wrote

Are you white skinned? Jesus you're reaching so far that your arm may become dislocated. Wasn't this discussion about skin color of characters in books and not where the characters lineage is from?

So which fantasy books are you reading that explicitly states the real world lineage of characters(to match skin color) and not just some statement about skin color?

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mongreldogchild t1_it7pevf wrote

Reread, king, your comprehension is busted. We were talking about EUROPEAN and specifically English medieval period being overly represented in this chain of comments. The talk was about how interest is based only on your heritage (somehow). So, why should I as a GREEK find any interest in other Europeans just because I am pale? (I am part Turk.) Yet, I don't have to find that. My SPECIFIC heritage is represented more so than the population should dictate.

It doesn't have to explicitly state lineage. When they are calling characters Castor and Acastus and Penelope and described with dark curly hair and dark eyes and olive skin, I know they are using my heritage as a building point for their fantasy culture.

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theworldsucksbigA t1_it7rzzs wrote

Lmao. No one said you have to find any interest in things that don't interest you, we're human we will like what we as an individual like. I believe this line of discussion was about the authors heritage influencing their works and not the heritage of the readers influencing the authors work. And those are just names, I had a white guy named dewayne that worked at my last job with me should he have been black or different ethnicity because of his name?

But I'm done with this convo, we'll just be going in circles from here based on your responses.

But here's some helpful guidance to hopefully help you and others that read this. Everyone is different, we are all human we bleed red when cut, stop seeing skin color or ethnicity or what someone believes in as proof that that person is this way or that, actually see the person in front of you and not some superficial fluff.

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mongreldogchild t1_it7skv1 wrote

Why jump into a conversation when you didn't even read what other participants said? I shouldn't have to break down all of your arguments into the context of the conversation for you. To say it's reaching that an entire society with Greek names, Greek appearance, Greek social mores, based off of what Ancient Greeks did with a pantheon similar to Ancient Greeks is note based on Greeks is insane. You just want to be right. You just want to hear yourself talk. Some guidance: instead of jumping into a conversation you refused to read when you just want to talk, buy a microphone and read aloud to yourself.

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theworldsucksbigA t1_it7srn0 wrote

Who said anything about Greeks besides you? Lmfao

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mongreldogchild t1_it7tdo0 wrote

I'll remind you of your argument for you:

You said: Most Americans are white, so their interest goes to white characters. Your implication being that the interest is based only on statistics not on other factors that go into this interest.

I said: I am Greek, and most white Americans are not Greek. Yet, American fantasy has a high saturation of Greek based fantasy despite the population. I asserted, because there are a lot of people interested in Greeks and a small minority of Americans are Greek means that the interest isn't about statistical presence in America.

You said: What is your skin color? Implying that because I am white, I should be interested in European cultures other than mine.

I said: But the whole premise you are defending states that it is about heritage. Why are Polish people interested in my Greek heritage? Why should I, a Greek, be interested in English fantasy?

You said: No one is talking about Greeks. Those Greek names could be anything, even though you specifically asked me to define how I knew the fantasy I read was talking about or referencing Greeks in some way.

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theworldsucksbigA t1_it7uncg wrote

Yeah the presence of characters and how they look is up to the author of the book and most authors in these genres are white. I seen a few of your comments on this post talking about you thinking someone is implying something. If you were following this thread then it started with how authors books are usually inspired by themselves and their history and that's why there are more white characters in these genres.

Edit but I'm done with this.

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mongreldogchild t1_it7w3se wrote

If its inspired by themselves, why are there so many Greek fantasies and characters and heritage represented when Greeks make up 1 or less % of the population and the authors themselves are not Greek?

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BlackNEwhite t1_it8q0q6 wrote

Are you unaware of the popularity and tradition of telling stories about Greek mythology? Xena the warrior princess, the Disney film Hercules etc. And that's just the super popular stuff.

Do you need help figuring out why writing stories in that same vein is popular among writers? Really?

Have you heard of money?

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mongreldogchild t1_it8vrf2 wrote

It's almost like that was my exact point. There is more than statistical presence of something that garners interest. If you'd taken even a passing interest in reading what I've written, you'd have seen that you should have been saying that to someone else besides me as that has been my point this entire time. No one here is of Greek heritage, yet they think that Greek heritage is popular in fantasy because of how many Greeks there are (in the same vein as their arguments towards other kinds of fantasy that focus on other European heritage).

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AtraMikaDelia t1_it8rayy wrote

Because Greece had more influence on modern western civilization than any other culture.

Even if the Greeks didn't personally make it to America in large numbers their influence certainly did

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mongreldogchild t1_it8vxeb wrote

It's almost like my point is that it has nothing to do with what someone has personally experienced or what is statistically "relevant". The use of the Greek canon and heritage to create fantasy worlds has nothing to do with Greek authors. The interest is formed from something else.

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TFTilted t1_it84l6w wrote

Everyone? Dude 1950s are over. Black people have money now, you know. just on my street alone there are probably 5 or 6 black millionaires who live in giant houses, God only knows how much money they have.

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mongreldogchild t1_it7mnew wrote

Also, I gotta say that it is mindboggling how you can use an example that literally has you stumbling into the point and ignorantly use it as proof of your point:

>On the same page, why is the WNBA waiting for men to watch the WNBA while women do not do that in the first place?

Women, from the time they are born, are not urged to move in the same way boys are. This happens from birth to death. We have proof of this. Boys are urged to do physical activities, watch physical activities, find comradery and even their own personhood in sports.

Girls, on the flip side, are rarely urged to do these things (once again, from the moment of birth) in the same way boys are. Women are told they are weaker and so it is pointless to perform these things. Women are discouraged from it (teenaged boys can beat you).

Funds, from school and onwards, are almost always dedicated to male participant sports. Self-perpetuating cycles.

Sociological factors win out. Why would women, who are actively discouraged in multiple ways for generations on a societal and individual level, from participating in sports be expected to consume enough sports media to hold up the industry they are actively discouraged from participating in, in every level?

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Noodles_Crusher t1_it7oaev wrote

you're just spouting the very same stereotypes that you're attributing to society as a whole: the difference in sport participation by gender is much lower than your comment would imply, and does not justify the lack of participation in sports entertainment at all:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/186929/participation-in-sports-activities-in-the-us-by-gender-and-age/

​

try again, maybe without parroting someone else's words this time.

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mongreldogchild t1_it7orp0 wrote

Whose words was I parroting?

Look at the statistics. Who is watching sports? Who is encouraged to be in sports as a career? Who is given funding? Who isn't? If women consistently make less and their sports is not watched and they make less because of this, do you think it has the same effect as male sports on men?

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Aldehyde1 t1_it888vn wrote

I love how you're telling someone to look at the statistics when they're the ones actually citing statistics and you're just spouting broad assertions. Why don't we take a look at the statistics? The WNBA makes 0.76% of the revenue of the NBA (despite its operating costs being subsidized by the NBA). Do you think that only 0.76% of women participate or are interested in sports? Well, 50-70% of women watch sports regularly depending on the country, according to last year's Global Sports Survey.

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mongreldogchild t1_it8b8br wrote

For one, their stats were behind a paywall and it wasn't just about sports but anything aerobic or strength gaining related. People who go to the gym do not equal people who are involved in or interested in sports. People who go on walks or do yoga does not equal people who watch sports.

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[deleted] t1_it7jh03 wrote

I never said it was made in a vacuum lol? I pretty explicitly stated people write about the things that interest them, their culture ties, etc. People are influenced and inspired by their heritage, where they live, etc. so obviously that is going to impact what they write about.

I’ve still yet to see a legitimate reason why someone from a particular culture/group can’t write a story about themselves and why you think you have the audacity to expect authors to check off a bunch of arbitrary boxes for who is included in their stories.

Europe is a very diverse place, I’m not sure where the slippery slope ends for how many groups have to be included for it to get your seal of approval.

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mongreldogchild t1_it7k3hs wrote

You didn't have to say it, it's implied. American authors writing about medieval fantasy European is their culture?

We aren't saying people aren't allowed to do anything. The fact you are reducing a question of why to trying to instigate erasing the opposite way is telling.

Why is it arbitrary?

What slippery slope is there? Are you telling me that if every form of media never depicted a white man you wouldn't be questioning it?

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[deleted] t1_it7ktbu wrote

Many white Americans are 1-2 generations removed from Europe. Modern fantasy authors likely grew up reading fantasy influenced by Europe. How do you not understand how this would influence what people are interested in writing about. Conversely, how many fantasy authors do you think can trace back their recent history to Africa?

The slippery slope is where does the list of who/what has to be included end? It isn’t up to individual authors to meet arbitrary distributions of people. How many blind people need to be included? Redheads? Lgbtq? Short people? Inuits? NASCAR drivers?

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mongreldogchild t1_it7n1nh wrote

And, yet, many white Americans are writing about fantasy cultures that do not exist and are based on European cultures they are not a part of. Funny.

It's almost like a system has been created that isn't based on what's interesting but what is allowed to continue.

Why do you think that there are less African fantasy authors? How many are authors and how many write for their own pleasure and never go further?

Yet, all the "arbitrary" people you talk about like redheads, short people, even nascar drivers have a tendency to be portrayed more frequently. Hm.

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[deleted] t1_it7ns35 wrote

Why do you think there are less white rappers? Do you think that is problematic? Funny that many rappers right about made up cultures and scenarios they aren’t part of.

See it works both ways.

If you think black people are underrepresented across media you are being either purposefully disingenuous or really have your blinders on.

It’s pretty simple - modern day sci-fin and fantasy are largely influenced by Europe, therefore they primarily feature European settings and draw influence from European rappers.

Go write the stories you want to see, idk what else to tell you lol

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mongreldogchild t1_it7og8a wrote

There are less white rappers because it's a genre created by black people that talks about the black experience and was created in the last 100 years. I guess you think that only Europeans know how to write? :(

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[deleted] t1_it7p2nj wrote

Good you’re almost there. Fantasy (largely high fantasy is what it seems OP is alluding to) is a genre that primarily came from European authors writing fiction around medieval Europe.

The great thing about being an adult, is just like any race can choose to write rap songs about wherever/whatever/whoever they want - any race can choose to write fantasy novels about wherever/whatever/whoever they want.

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mongreldogchild t1_it7pwn1 wrote

No, it didn't. It has existed for well over a 100 years and has roots in many cultures. Modern fantasy is definitely based on European writers, however. No need to be condescending when you can't even grasp basic concepts such as access.

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[deleted] t1_it89l2l wrote

To deny that white people essentially created and have contributed the most to what we view today as fantasy and sci fi is just historical revisionism and denial. This isn’t a good vs bad judgement, just statement of fact.

The same reason why rap has, until recently, been largely dominated by African Americans. They created the genre and have contributed the most to it.

No one had a problem with that, and the solution to bringing in more diversity was more people of other races immersing themselves in the genre and trying to become rappers. It wasn’t to ask African American rappers to be more inclusive/write about white people lol.

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mongreldogchild t1_it8c7xn wrote

I just said that modern fantasy is European based. Way to paint an argument as disingenuous as possible instead of attack the real one. Reread what I said. Fantasy, as a whole, has links to many cultures over many time periods. Fantasy is heavily related to mythology. Unless you think that only Europeans have magic and mythology related stories?

Once again, you are taking two examples of writing that don't relate. Rap and most poetry is highly personal. A fantasy story is not. To say otherwise is just wrong. Participation only matters when participation is allowed to exist. You have willfully ignored every point because it hurts your feelings. We can see that by saying that I'm trying to erase European history from the creation of the modern fantasy genre when that was never stated.

You keep running into the point and then walking away from it. There are societal factors that keep certain people from being able to write certain things with the same reach as others. You can argue that until your face is blue, but that's the truth. Modern standards on what fantasy should be keep out authors with different ideas. Modern standards and racial biases also keep out certain groups. Sociological factors also do which are semi-related to racism as well also keep out certain people from writing and being published. Is that so hard to understand?

Should we dance around the subject for a few more hours so you can prop up nonsensical examples like rapping about Czech Republic when the foundational precedent of rap is always a highly personal narrative and was made by and for a specific group of people in a way that writing (as a whole) and fantasy (as a whole) was not?

You have made arguments many times painting my side of the argument to mean that I want to force writers to only write what I want them to write, that I think a gun should be held to their head. No. Me and OP are asking a question. You are hilariously missing the point because the truth isn't convenient for you. White authors and white European fantasies are the norm. They sell better. They are published more. They have nothing systemically holding them back from the publishing industry in the same way. They are not held to the same standards and can write whatever they wish. They, like you and all of us, are subject to the world we live in which only cares about white Europeans. It isn't a statistical interest. It's a historical precedent based off of white supremacist colonialism from white Europeans to break it down to the most straightforward deconstruction of the argument.

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WTDWstonehenge t1_it8ic6n wrote

You’ve hit the nail on the head. Black people/POC are underrepresented because systemic racism. Simple. To argue otherwise is ignorant. (Obviously taking into account historical exceptions.)

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Liamlah t1_itb84h3 wrote

Writing a fantasy novel based on cultures other than your own, especially marginalised ones, is a good way to attract an hate mob to get your book removed from shelves for racism and cultural appropriation.

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