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JusticeCat88905 t1_isasvti wrote

I have the absolute best advice for men that doesn’t require a book. Stop being a misogynist. Women are human beings and they aren’t meaningfully different from men so stop treating them like sexual objects to be captured and conquered and start being friends with women, and you will see the quality of your social life increase tenfold. It’s really that simple.

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RD__III t1_isb6f1j wrote

>I have the absolute best advice for men that doesn’t require a book. Stop being a misogynist.

And this shit is why people like Andrew Tate get a following.

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JusticeCat88905 t1_isb70r8 wrote

Our society teaches men to treat women as objects. It’s because of this that they can’t have meaningful relationships with women, and it’s because of the lack of those relationships they are unhappy and that reinforces their belief that women are objects. The only thing that can be done about this is conscious self analysis and the raising of consciousness about your own beliefs to deprogram the harmful ideas about human society that people like Tate push that are not new, they are simply the recitation of the default perspective instilled in the west.

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RD__III t1_isb9agk wrote

What sort of bullshit is this? "dating life" Isn't even one of the top causes, let alone the single biggest. Causes such as

  1. lack of acceptance of emotional expression

  2. lack of emotional communication

  3. lack of support structures

  4. financial pressures and hardship

  5. lack of emotional acceptance (E.G. You)

are all larger causes than "can't get a girlfriend". This is a large and complex issue, and trying to twist this into some victim blaming chauvinist bullshit about objectification is insane.

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notorious98 t1_isbp8j6 wrote

All problems exacerbated by the fact that toxic masculinity has told boys and young men that showing your feelings is a "woman's trait".

Also, everybody has financial pressures and hardships, women included. In 2018, women (12.9%) lived in higher rates of poverty compared to men (10.6%).

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RD__III t1_isbpgko wrote

>All problems exacerbated by the fact that toxic masculinity has told boys and young men that showing your feelings is a "woman's trait".

And that's not moving the goal posts at all. We went from "Women are objects" to "woman's traits" real damn quick.

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notorious98 t1_isbpnre wrote

That's a lot of words you put together. You sure that you understand what they mean within the context of what I said?

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RD__III t1_isbpzel wrote

>You sure that you I understand

Pretty sure this isn't even a proper English sentence, so I certainly didn't understand this.

I also realize you aren't the person I was initially discussing with, which makes you totally changing directions seem a lot more logical.

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notorious98 t1_isbqgx7 wrote

>Pretty sure this isn't even a proper English sentence

Oh no, a typo that was already corrected.

However, if you couldn't understand what was written because of a single erroneous "I", it's not "the left" that's causing you to have problems in life.

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Dazzling--00 t1_iscabx0 wrote

Many of the things you mention are things that are affecting society in general. In Western countries, there are fewer community groups and societal structures, and more emphasis on the individual. That means individuals face immense pressure to "succeed", at the same time they're being placed in increasingly difficult situations where they have no chance of succeeding. The cost of living, housing affordability, lower wages and more. Add to that the climate crisis, the toxic nature of online communities, online disinformation, the lack of ways to meet potential partners, the lack of meaning - it's difficult for everyone.

The more we fight each other the worse it becomes. I think we're at a time when we need to recognise our similarities and work together. Blaming women, boomers, "them" and so on doesn't work. It's all of us.

I don't support the men's rights movement as it is, not because I don't support men, but because it seeks to portray men primarily as victims in search of a perpetrator. Ironically, I think it often seeks to diminish men's agency. It strongly suggests there are societal forces trying to keep men down. It's often not clearly stated who or what these forces are and disaffected men can then start to see enemies everywhere: teachers, other students, women in general, institutions, the left, the right, mainstream media, government, etc. I would suggest this is the ideological foundation that starts to weaponise young men. It could easily be exploited by anyone seeking to destabilise a nation or society.

Instead of squabbling online we can come together in real life to make the world a better place.

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JusticeCat88905 t1_isb9hu1 wrote

It’s all part of the same structure, interpersonal relationships (I’m not specifying romantic relationships here btw) is just a good example of how this plays out.

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RD__III t1_isba9jb wrote

please stop this chauvinistic bullshit. Not all issues in society can be rooted out as men objectifying women. There can be more than one cause of issues, and not everything revolves around what you think is most important.

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abigailxo94 t1_isbzt31 wrote

It's clear that men have an issue with accountability.

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BreakingBaldAmirite t1_isb00n7 wrote

Turns out all men's issues are actually just us being bad and not treating women correctly! Thank you! Why didn't anyone else think of this

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JusticeCat88905 t1_isb5blj wrote

Yea actually. Basically it comes down to asking yourself why you believe the things you believe, and where those beliefs come from. You will find that the same structural institutions that men struggle against are the same ones reinforcing their beliefs that make them unable to struggle against those institutions effectively. Being a misogynist makes your life harder, being a homophobe makes your life harder.

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BreakingBaldAmirite t1_isb8fj9 wrote

> Yea actually. Basically it comes down to asking yourself why you believe the things you believe

The absolute fucking demon that you are who thinks only people that believe certain things struggle, and end up with mental health issues and suicide.

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JusticeCat88905 t1_isb9aji wrote

At no point have I said this what a wild leap to take. The reason this person sees the left as “attacking masculinity” as a problem is because he sees traditional masculinity as the default rather than something socially constructed and most of the “lefts attacks” are simply challenging that construction as being the default and rather than questioning the legitimacy of traditionalism as the default their reaction to these “attacks” are to dig themselves further into the anti social behaviors that make them already so harmful.

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BreakingBaldAmirite t1_isb9u9l wrote

"It's all your fault lol".

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JusticeCat88905 t1_isbaz5y wrote

No it’s patriarchy’s fault but systems exist on both a systemic and individual level. Individuals can’t do much about changing systems without first changing their mind and organizing with eachother to change systems.

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BreakingBaldAmirite t1_isbb76h wrote

So true bestie, we will not work on the issues such as suicide, and focus on your rhetoric, which is "stop being a misogynist and I get to decide what that is". Which will: get us nowhere, do the opposite of saving lives (but I can tell you've managed to abstract such petty things).

I'm glad I get to get some fresh air and see some real people later tonight, the internet is exhausting and I can easily see how it drives people into insanity.

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JusticeCat88905 t1_isbbdkc wrote

So you think fighting “the lefts attacks on masculinity” is doing anything about suicide? Have you read this guys post?

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BreakingBaldAmirite t1_isbby6i wrote

No, I think that guy is trying to sell books, and doesn't care either. I'm challenging your specific comment, and never even implied I agree with the original post.

Thankfully, a demon waving the red or blue flag doesn't blind me to them being a demon, desperate to feast on my blood.

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JusticeCat88905 t1_isbcnud wrote

The ideas Patriarchy instills in men harms men full stop. That’s the argument.

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BreakingBaldAmirite t1_isbicbc wrote

So you're just gonna strip the entire bit where you say "be nicer to women and everything's gonna be better!", and the "maybe if they weren't supportive of the patriarchy they'd stop suffering!", as if it's not the entire reason I challenged your take in the first place? Heavily implying that the people who suffer, kill themselves, or express their frustrations in some way are actually just bad people (of course this will be a "leap" in logic for you, even if it's the logical next step). Then you had that weird bit about homophobia as if homosexuals aren't in even bigger danger of self-harm, carefully exposing the internet bubble you apparently live in, possibly due to being banished from Earth a few thousand years ago.

> The ideas Patriarchy instills in men harms men full stop.

Guys, it's the patriarchy, but it just happens to be that the line between the suffering and the beneficiaries can be drawn at an economical class level better than at a sex level.

You don't understand why these young men suffer. You don't understand (or care) why they're in pain and most of all you're concerned with your own goals. Ironically, this it the same level of compassion they get in their daily lives, and why they suffer in the first place.

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JusticeCat88905 t1_isbkvki wrote

So most of the first part is just absurd and doesn’t even address anything I’ve said really. To jump from me saying “behavior enforced and rewarded by patriarchy harms men” to “I think men who kill themselves are bad people” when at no point have I even discussed suicide, and there are huge gaps that you need to fill to get from A to B just saying “that’s the natural conclusion” isn’t enough when you don’t even understand the point I’m making.

What’s funny about you identifying class as being more impactful than patriarchy is you ignore than patriarchy is a product and tool of class oppression, which is why consciousness is required to overcome these issues, because they are largely products of the contradictions between a class society and liberation, and even seeing that requires at least a basic level of class consciousness and or historical material analysis

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