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left4ched t1_isacq8a wrote

>The left has vilified and turned their backs on men, and mistakenly and stupidly treated all forms of masculinity as “toxic”. The right has embraced men and masculinity,

Patently untrue. The rigid gender roles that box young men in and deny them the freedom of expression they need to cope with their problems come from traditional conservative attitudes of masculinity.

"You need to be a man" vs "It's ok to be yourself." Which advice do you think is more useful to a struggling young man? Which one gives them a narrow line to walk and which gives them freedom to find their own way out? And which one do you hear most often from the left or right?

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RD__III t1_isal4r9 wrote

Then why have suicide rates been consistently going up for the past couple decades?

As a man, It's really tough. You either go with the right where you have to "be a man" and have all these antiquated values thrown at your face, or you go with the left where "It's okay to be yourself*" (* unless yourself is anything that happens to actually align with traditional masculinity, at which point you need to change).

I've personally been shamed for multiple hobbies & personality traits that just so happen to align with conservative/traditional examples of masculinity, even though it's what makes me happy.

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iknownothin_ t1_isbhsw5 wrote

>(* unless yourself is anything that happens to actually align with traditional masculinity, at which point you need to change).

Idk what kind of people you hang out with but this has never been my experience with the left lol. I’ve never seen them have an issue with masculinity in general — it’s only when it becomes toxic.

Nobody is telling traditionally masculine men that they need to change, they are telling them that they are now free to change

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lastchance12 t1_isbnxfj wrote

Can you give an example of something you have been shamed for?

I have been gently ribbed for certain things, like being in a fantasy football league for example, but it generally has felt good natured, thankfully.

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RD__III t1_isboi1m wrote

>Can you give an example of something you have been shamed for?

Personally, I go to an IFBB gym, and have gotten multiple comments about it. Not at all because of my behavior, just because I go to a certain gym.

Also, I used to shoot competitively (archery) and still shoot recreationally (archery as well as firearms). the amount of "compensating for something" and "must have a small dick" comments is sort of crazy.

I've certainly got a lot of more light hearted shit I don't really mind about things like the gym, FF as well, video games, etc, but there's definitely a distinct difference.

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Dazzling--00 t1_isc6fo7 wrote

Do you think comments about your archery "compensating for something" were enough to make you feel suicidal? Sorry, but is that the extent of it? I can browse this website for 5 minutes and see more toxic comments about women.

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pedestrianpinniped t1_isck83r wrote

>Moderators

And it would take me 30 someone saying all men are trash. What is your point it's not a competition. The difference is most of western society is against misogyny but misandry is met with YES queen yesssss preachhh.

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Katerade44 t1_isczhk7 wrote

No, mysandry (a much less common aspect of society) is held up as an excuse for MRA to try to put both all genders into narrow boxes of traditional gender norms.

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Dazzling--00 t1_ise89ke wrote

I don't see it. The "Yes queen" language you mention is usually on social media - that's not really feminism, just people talking. Social media is pretty toxic in general, sadly.

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notorious98 t1_isbnvyy wrote

Strawmen and anecdotal evidence.

Name a more iconic garbage argument duo.

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Dawens OP t1_isb0ovv wrote

This isn’t solely a US phenomenon. If you’re seeing waves and droves of young men fleeing to the right on a global scale, whether it’s in South Korea or Western Europe, that should sound the blaring alarm that something is wrong. Ignoring this issue or reflexively and lazily dismissing it as “anti-feminist” hate and misogyny will only widen the gender divide and empower those who are far more dangerous to women’s rights and progress, and society as a whole.

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RD__III t1_isb18er wrote

It sucks, because as a guy who is traditionally masculine, but also believes people don't *need* to be, I don't really feel welcome or respected on either side. Hell, I honestly feel more accepted and respected by the crazy MAGA crowd.

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Katerade44 t1_isbj1ww wrote

As long as being "traditionally masculine" doesn't make you a jerk, no one on the left will have a problem with you. This hyperbole is so strange.

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ViskerRatio t1_isd6jme wrote

> Which advice do you think is more useful to a struggling young man?

To most young men? "You need to be a man" is far more useful advice.

These 'rigid gender roles' didn't just pop into existence like magic. They're the result of millennia of human experience. Do they apply well to everyone? No. But the fact that they're almost universal across human experience - bridging cultures that never had any contact with one another - should give you a clue that maybe there's an actual reason they exist beyond a mere quirk of our particular society.

Basically, you're trying to 'femsplain' how men work. There's a reason that boys raised without a father struggle so much in life - and it's because all they have are mothers that presume little boys think just like little girls. Well, some do. But most don't - and they are poorly served by treating them as little girls when they aren't.

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HallonWriter t1_isdpbiy wrote

>"You need to be a man" is far more useful advice.

Literally the most useless advice I could ever think of.

Completely meaningless without further explaining, hard to understand for someone who isn't one yet, easily misinterpreted unless the view of what is a good man is steadily reinforced, applied to millions who are in fact poor rolemodels and very bad examples to follow, making it a uselessly wide group to be a part of.

Maybe consider something with even an ounce of actual insight instead?

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