VengefulMight OP t1_j9yqf37 wrote on February 25, 2023 at 3:33 PM

Reply to comment by Glitz-1958 in What urban legends do you find most interesting in literature and books? by VengefulMight

There will probably be a grain of truth in that. Most witches accused were women, but most of those who accused them were also women.

So, say a mother loses her baby in a miscarriage and the midwife herself happens to be childless. It is very easy for her to suspect that a jealous midwife has done something sinister.

Glitz-1958 t1_j9z96ka wrote on February 25, 2023 at 5:39 PM

I recently discovered that the research behind Terry Pratchett’s midwife-witches was flawed. He’d got the idea from the writer Lovecraft who he was parodying. Lovecraft had picked up on the ideas of a writer and a biologist, Barbara Ehrenreich and Dierdre English. It seems that not being historians they made a natural mix up by not having read the original documents, only later opinions. They were absolutely correct on both of their main ideas -

* one that witchcraft accusations had been a way of policing and repressing women’s behaviour in the past, and

* two that midwives were eventually pushed out of medicine by so-called ‘real’ doctors. * Their mistake was lumping the two groups together.

Midwives were pushed out by doctors but weren’t persecuted with the witches. Witches, and many innocent women along the way, were persecuted but wouldn’t have been recognised as professional midwives.

They did have an important role in society and witchcraft was one of the few ways a woman could make an independent living. They were who you went to if you wanted to know about your future and probably gave advice along the way. You went to them if you had a grudge and wanted to get back at the person you were blaming with a curse. Some did useful herbalist and faith healer work too.

Historians have checked the records and found that while midwives occasionally appear among the lists of people accused or executed for witchcraft, it was no more than any other profession or position in society. Also the church wouldn’t have mixed the two up as midwives get a good rap in the bible but witches don’t.

I still love the witches characters but have to do a bit more gymnastics in my head now when he mixes up the witch, midwife and traditional healer roles. I know this is fantasy, and Discworld at that, but he’s so thorough in other historical details about traditional sheep rearing, relationships between the Lord of the Manor and the village, or describing how Granny made her hat with willow sticks it disappoints me a little that he’d been misled. This “ Dig'' podcast has the details and all the references in the show notes in the link. It’s proper studies not opinion.

https://digpodcast.org/2020/09/06/doctor-healer-midwife-witch-how-the-the-womens-health-movement-created-the-myth-of-the-midwife-witch/

VengefulMight OP t1_j9z9u7z wrote on February 25, 2023 at 5:43 PM

Hence, why I said just a grain. Many urban legends have a kernel of truth to them.

Oh absolutely, the idea that witchcraft was a pagan religion being supressed is nonsense.

Witches were considered Christians, just flawed ones. Midwives and others would have actually been used to help carry out the witch trials, to search women for the alleged "marks of the devil".

The reality is that if you were a woman, disease and starvation were a far bigger anxiety than witchcraft accusations.

The number of women allegedly burned (witches were normally hanged, rather than burned, as burning was a punishment for heretics and witches weren't considered heretics) is always massively exaggerated.

Glitz-1958 t1_j9zcmn1 wrote on February 25, 2023 at 6:02 PM

Yes.

Jack-Campin t1_ja01o90 wrote on February 25, 2023 at 8:49 PM

Lovecraft died in 1937. Ehrenreich was born in 1941, English in 1948. I don't think he was quoting them.

Glitz-1958 t1_ja03f40 wrote on February 25, 2023 at 9:01 PM

The article and its soures make clear how the misapprehension happened.

Jack-Campin t1_ja07fl9 wrote on February 25, 2023 at 9:29 PM

It's not the article, it's what you wrote:

"Lovecraft had picked up on the ideas of a writer and a biologist, Barbara Ehrenreich and Dierdre English."

There's a true and interesting statement trying to get out in your post though.

Glitz-1958 t1_ja09z29 wrote on February 25, 2023 at 9:46 PM

Looks like I got them in the wrong order. They picked up on the previous person who wrote for the encyclopedia. Thanks for pointing that out. The show/show notes are much clearer.