Submitted by medsmthng t3_11dovm1 in books

It's not like I'm completely not guilty of this! but, for goodness sake, you see people painfully complain about some issue or problem or their life in general... and they think that the solution or the salvation and the answers would come in some comment online (well, it might happen but very rarely). It's like they don't know that books exist! Books, good books, which are the efforts of years or at least months trying to answer questions about some matter that you would find yourself going through or looking for answers to it... Like, there are many lists for great books from every field of knowledge and culture, that one of them would be the book you at the present time would really want to know what it is saying... and there are good or good enough books whose titles are the questions you have in mind, like "How to do such and such..." Pick up some of these books! or one book at least! you don't have to suffer for too long with no answers...

I guess I wrote this due to frustration... (although I don't like the word, it gets interpreted wrongly...) Let's go with that, for the lack of a better word.

I could go on and on, but let me end this on a good note. Some book suggestions for everybody/anybody. Short books (although I could recommend others) Short, but oh, how beneficial they are, and how much answers they have... Let's go with not so known ones:

- Enchiridion by Epictetus

- The wisdom of life by Schopenhauer

- The art of worldly wisdom by Baltasar Gracian

Read great and good books, and tell people to read! Or put the books in their sight, no need to talk. Do it for the people you care about and strangers you would like to help... it is, I think, better than money in most cases. Do it even if you think or "know" they won't read. That's not up to you/not in your control... Don't be discouraged by that! Hopefully, they might at some point!

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Indifferent_Jackdaw t1_jaa086h wrote

Ooof I strongly disagree with this. I love books but I have lost count of the number of times I have see a request for a book recommendation and thought, there's no book for that. Sometimes you have to do the thing, fail and do the thing again. Sometimes you need to talk to real human beings. Sometimes you need to talk to a doctor.

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Nynaeve91 t1_jaa0ifn wrote

This. Sometimes engagement and interaction with other humans is needed, or even just desired.

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medsmthng OP t1_jaa1fny wrote

Reading the books doesn't resolve one from the fact that they have to practice and put what they read into action... otherwise it's useless... You're disagreeing with something I didn't say!

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Timely-Huckleberry73 t1_jaa59sb wrote

I wish books could solve my problem.. I guess in theory the enchiridion of Epictetus has the solution, but is it actually possible in practice? According to Epictetus you could chop off all of someone’s limbs, gouge out their eyes, cut out their tongue and you would have taken nothing from that person. They should be able to be perfectly content living a virtuous, tongueless, eyeless, limbless life. Stoicism is a nice idea I suppose, and something to strive for, but not something that is actually possible for a human being facing extreme hardship.

Next time you meet a limbless, tongueless, eyeless person who happens to feel bad about their lot in life, I do not think you should recommend they read Epictetus in order to solve their problems. I think they would be quite offended lol.

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medsmthng OP t1_jaaagyo wrote

An objection to the teachings of stoicism! Not a sound one though!

I don't recall reading something in Epictetus work formed like the exaggeration you put together, an exaggeration aimed at making the advice/notions look ridiculous, maybe stemming from misunderstanding the teachings...

Let's go with the example of the people who suffer the most in this world... How are the teachings of stoicism not beneficial for them to go through life... How would they be offended of something beneficial to them and for the peace of their minds... What do you suggest otherwise in that aspect?! Whatever it is, you'll probably find stoics have mentioned... Heck, you would find some of those people, the ones who want and do live life, living with those teachings/ideas without ever hearing about the word stoicism... Or do you suggest they kill themselves because of their suffering?!

I could address this more and more, but, Let's not... !

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Amphy64 t1_jaacdop wrote

What you may not be appreciating is that reconciling with something still means accepting a loss, of having had something taken from you, in some cases. Refusing to accept it can mean insisting on the importance of what was lost. This is a sensitive area for disabled/chronically ill people. I was promised a 'normal' life as a teenager prior to the negligently-performed operation that disabled me. As disabled people in society, we are seen as lesser, as not fully human, as though 'normal', full human life doesn't apply to us, isn't even something we have a right to desire.

Absolutely, they should have every right to kill themselves if they so wish, suicide is an issue of bodily autonomy. Maybe check out philosophical works on this subject. It's not a taboo question. Camus' Absurdism presents suicide as not the answer, but as 'the only really important philosophical question'. I love Camus, I would absolutely put his work in front of a sufferer of chronic illness before any work of stoicism written by some Roman Emperor. Camus contracted TB, he went from fit and sporting to living under the shadow of death, he knows what he's talking about.

Camus was also very politically active. I'd suggest books about political movements and activism before a book of stoicism, too. Marcus Aurelius directly benefited from people being encouraged to accept their lot in life. Pitchforks are really a far preferable problem solving approach in this case.

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medsmthng OP t1_jaafoj7 wrote

Seneca, the stoic philosopher is "somewhat" with the idea of suicide, although I disagree with him... and he suffered from serious illness too. Epictetus was disabled and a slave... but they encouraged living a "good" life, for everybody, a life without additional unnecessary suffering

and what you said in the first paragraph is not how they put it... and I couldn't do their philosophy justice by my wording, especially here... They do!

As you read those opinions, it would benefit you to check out stoic literature extensively, and yes, even from the Roman emperor... It's not only me who says so, but many people from all sorts... including the disabled/chronically ill throughout history...

It's something good for you, if you want it!

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Timely-Huckleberry73 t1_jaae8pf wrote

My interest in stoicism comes from personal experience. I suffered a neurological injury ten years ago as a young man. As a result I have lost everything (although according to a stoic I have lost nothing). I lost my health, my agency, my independence, my career, my love life, my sex life, my hobbies, my friends, my social status, even my identity. I live in excruciating agony every day, my whole body feels like it is on fire, I have constant migraines, I spend half my time lying in the dark hiding from light and sounds because they are like knives being driven into my eyes and ears respectively. I have severe insomnia and it is not uncommon for me to be awake for three days straight. My eyes, hurt my vision is blurry, everything hurts. My body is failing and malfunctioning in so many ways I would have to write a small book to list them all. I cannot function, I cannot take care of myself, most of the time I can barely read, I can barely follow a tv show, I have not felt human touch in a decade, my life is comprised of (almost) nothing but illness and loss.

I became very interested in stoicism a few years into my injury. I wanted to believe that it was possible to live a eudaemonic life even though I had lost so much. I was passionate about the philosophy and tried to incorporate it as a worldview, every time I found myself feeling sorry for myself or pining for the things I lost and the things of which I was deprived I would stop myself and attempt to focus on virtue. For a while this helped, my outlook on life improved somewhat. But eventually I realized I wasn’t a stoic at all! I was tricking myself! I was focused on virtue for instrumental reasons, not because I truly believed it had intrinsic value. Part of me thought that maybe if I changed my attitude, that I would be able to heal, maybe my health would return, maybe I would be able to work again, to date girls again! However, this was not to be, the illness remained, the pain remained, and it soon became clear that virtue is small comfort to a man starving to death.

I think stoicism would be a great philosophy for most peoples However I think the more a person needs it, the less possible it is to actually practice it. I prefer Aristotle’s conceptualization of virtue ethics, as he accepts that people have fundamental needs to be met before virtue is actually possible.

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medsmthng OP t1_jaakrxv wrote

I think you would like some of Schopenhauer's work... said to be painted with something I could, borrowing, call "cheerful" pessimism...

Also, disagreeing with a saying of a stoic doesn't mean the philosophy in general is wrong...

and I don't they promise you'll live a eudaemonic life... instead, I believe they advise one to be "cautious" and to lower their expectations and expect the worst, as not to be so shocked, when the bad things happen... but also, it's not like they encourage inactivity! No, they encourage one to do what he can, what he can control, and to not postpone things, and to have the courage to do what you should do, so as to live life not burdened by the consequences of the opposite of that...

and, Man, from what you mentioned, I couldn't but say, like they say, I feel for you! and for the people who commented... I hope you the best!

and also for who wouldn't read the books I suggested, It gives me the feeling that made me write the post! When people reject what would help them!

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Pipe-International t1_jabqldp wrote

Wow.

Your comments read really ableist, privileged and insensitive.

You don’t know what people need to help them.

Suggesting someone with severe disabilities a book that is basically ‘just get over it and be happy - you actually haven’t lost anything’ is rude and entitled.

Books are no guarantee of fixing anything.

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medsmthng OP t1_jacvvay wrote

Using labels! and false ones at that! Do you know how many labels apply to what you said...

Learn and try to address ideas as they are, with sound reasoning. Which seems you're failing to do here... Not just you!

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Pipe-International t1_jaepyan wrote

Is there a book out there about how not to be rude and elitist? If there is, I recommend it to you.

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campionmusic51 t1_jaa8fdl wrote

this comes from a place of pure presumption.

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medsmthng OP t1_jaaherv wrote

I see it is taken too literally/with no exception, and taken beyond what it is meant for... Human understanding tends to do so... !

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Amphy64 t1_jaa5jb7 wrote

The other day I was reading the reviews of Joan Didion's two books on grief. It seems she wrote them because having looked, she found there was not a book. Now there is: but on the loss of her daughter, in particular, the reviews seemed to suggest that she had found the limits of art. (So did the composer Leos Janacek in his opera about art and loss after the death of his daughter: the opera suggests that art is simply inadequate) There being a book doesn't always help. Sometimes specific advice, shared experience, talking to real people, is helpful regardless of if it does or not.

I've personally yet to find a book that discusses the kind of health problems I've experienced. Have never even come across anyone else with precisely the same issue, particularly at this severity. A male Greek philosopher probably doesn't know all that much about women's health: the kind of generalised life advice often found in philosophical books can just feel like a platitude to someone struggling with a specific issue. It's at best the equivalent of 'learn to live with it', which is much easier said or read than done. Even if the person knows there is no other option in living than to live with it, their conflict can remain in simply not wanting to, and hope is also not so easily extinguished.

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AtraMikaDelia t1_jabbjef wrote

The problem with things like this is you assume that people will read the same books as you on the given subject. Say you want to talk about the war and militarism and suggest reading 'The Things They Carried' and 'The Forever War', but I read 'Starship Troopers' and 'Storm of Steel'.

Yeah we both read books about the same problem but we're probably going to come away with different opinions. Or we could both read all four of those books, and then who knows if I'll agree with you or not?

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