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addctd2badideas t1_j0dbj1g wrote

Reply to comment by DfcukinLite in Meet the Guy Behind 34th Street’s First-Ever Hanukkah House by aresef

Because the holiday season is already insufferable enough as it is without us making a fuss about a minor holiday that's been overblown because of Xmas. While you people are really enjoying the festive birth of your savior while we're celebrating a bargain for 8 fucking days. Not to mention the history of Hanukkah is kinda celebrating religious fundamentalism.

Sorry to be a downer. Happy holidays I guess.

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DfcukinLite t1_j0ddyb3 wrote

But Christmas is hardly religious anymore. It’s just a reason to spend money to send into the economy and be merry. Yeah, some people go to church, etc but that’s probably the only time of the year, beside maybe Easter and people hardly go for those anymore these days

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addctd2badideas t1_j0dk80a wrote

Except that's DEFINITELY not my perception. I don't care if your Xmas involves "child son of God but also not" or "magic home invasion mailman in red"... it's not my holiday and you can't go anywhere without incessant holiday music playing... and it's always the same goddamn songs over and over.

It's always the goyim who tell me to "be merry" as if the Christmas Hegemony doesn't exist. Kinda like how Evangelicals complain how oppressed they are when they're a quarter of the entire population.

Let people be and stop shoving your holidays down the throats of people who don't want it.

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DfcukinLite t1_j0dlho9 wrote

You apparently have feels about Xmas or something. But can confidently say it’s not really that religious because it’s based of a pagan holiday. But that’s awhile another topic of conversation, much like how you just hijacked and derailed my innocent wholesome thread. You could use some Xmas cheer.

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[deleted] t1_j0dlwfi wrote

[removed]

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Elias_The_Thief t1_j0duuno wrote

Totally agree man, this dude is a joker with no clue what he is talking about. Honestly hope its a troll account.

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DfcukinLite t1_j0dm0tr wrote

You’re the only person arguing in your feelings. I asked simple questions. You went on some anti Xmas/Christian rant. Weird

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addctd2badideas t1_j0dmn51 wrote

I tell you what my perception of the season is and you shit all over it. You're an asshole.

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DfcukinLite t1_j0dmyfj wrote

No, I disagreed and stated my opinion as a someone that “celebrates” and than you proceed to anti Xmas/Christian rant and gaslight. On brand for you tho.

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Elias_The_Thief t1_j0dtcou wrote

I think you should double check your history. While its true that Christmas is intertwined with the winter solstice, and, certain traditions that became Christmas traditions were taken from Pagan celebrations (among others) to say it is 'based on' a pagan holiday is egregiously incorrect.

I would recommend the entire wiki article, but the bit about concurrent celebrations is particularly relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas#Relation_to_concurrent_celebrations

Christmas is, quite explicitly, a celebration of the birth of Christianity's most important religious figure and not 'based on' the winter solstice just because a few traditions were stolen or incorporated to ease assimilation.

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DfcukinLite t1_j0du4v7 wrote

Below I’ve listed a little light reading for you to educate yourself on the origins of Christmas and it’s hijack of pagan winter solace traditions. Im not incorrect.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christmas

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna50284202

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/the-unexpected-pagan-origins-of-popular-christmas-traditions/

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Elias_The_Thief t1_j0dum4p wrote

You are completely incorrect in saying that Christmas is based on pagan holidays. As I noted, I'm not denying that traditions of winter solstice (among others) were stolen or incorporated, but to say that Christmas itself is based on it is a pretty shallow and ignorant interpretation.

I find it funny that you can't even manage to read my comment or spell solstice right but you still think you know what you're talking about because you posted a couple nbc news articles. This honestly has to be a troll account.

Also, did you read your sources? They support my position better than your own, lol.

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DfcukinLite t1_j0dvkc5 wrote

“The early Christian community distinguished between the identification of the date of Jesus’ birth and the liturgical celebration of that event. The actual observance of the day of Jesus’ birth was long in coming. In particular, during the first two centuries of Christianity there was strong opposition to recognizing birthdays of martyrs or, for that matter, of Jesus. Numerous Church Fathers offered sarcastic comments about the pagan custom of celebrating birthdays when, in fact, saints and martyrs should be honoured on the days of their martyrdom—their true “birthdays,” from the church’s perspective.”

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Elias_The_Thief t1_j0dxb47 wrote

Again, the selection of the name and date have little to do with what the holiday is celebrating and whether it is religious. I'm afraid you've gone and got a little lost in the sauce on this one.

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DfcukinLite t1_j0dvsfn wrote

The precise origin of assigning December 25 as the birth date of Jesus is unclear. The New Testament provides no clues in this regard. December 25 was first identified as the date of Jesus’ birth by Sextus Julius Africanus in 221 and later became the universally accepted date. One widespread explanation of the origin of this date is that December 25 was the Christianizing of the dies solis invicti nati (“day of the birth of the unconquered sun”), a popular holiday in the Roman Empire that celebrated the winter solstice as a symbol of the resurgence of the sun, the casting away of winter and the heralding of the rebirth of spring and summer. Indeed, after December 25 had become widely accepted as the date of Jesus’ birth, Christian writers frequently made the connection between the rebirth of the sun and the birth of the Son. One of the difficulties with this view is that it suggests a nonchalant willingness on the part of the Christian church to appropriate a pagan festival when the early church was so intent on distinguishing itself categorically from pagan beliefs and practices.

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Elias_The_Thief t1_j0dwsum wrote

This is referring to the selection of the date and has nothing to do with the basis of the holiday. Nice try though.

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DfcukinLite t1_j0dx4xv wrote

grasping at straws..

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Elias_The_Thief t1_j0dxf9j wrote

Try speaking in complete sentences before trying to argue with someone who knows more than you.

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DfcukinLite t1_j0dve3g wrote

“Christmas, Christian festival celebrating the birth of Jesus. The English term Christmas (“mass on Christ’s day”) is of fairly recent origin. The earlier term Yule may have derived from the Germanic jōl or the Anglo-Saxon geōl, which referred to the feast of the winter solstice. The corresponding terms in other languages—Navidad in Spanish, Natale in Italian, Noël in French—all probably denote nativity. The German word Weihnachten denotes “hallowed night.” Since the early 20th century, Christmas has also been a secular family holiday, observed by Christians and non-Christians alike, devoid of Christian elements, and marked by an increasingly elaborate exchange of gifts. In this secular Christmas celebration, a mythical figure named Santa Claus plays the pivotal role. Christmas is celebrated on Sunday, December 25, 2022.”

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christmas

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Elias_The_Thief t1_j0dx3x6 wrote

In what way does the origin of the name support your point? The celebration existed long before the modern name but was always to do with celebration of the birth of Christ. Good try again.

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DfcukinLite t1_j0dx9tg wrote

The precise origin of assigning December 25 as the birth date of Jesus is unclear. The New Testament provides no clues in this regard. December 25 was first identified as the date of Jesus’ birth by Sextus Julius Africanus in 221 and later became the universally accepted date. One widespread explanation of the origin of this date is that December 25 was the Christianizing of the dies solis invicti nati (“day of the birth of the unconquered sun”), a popular holiday in the Roman Empire that celebrated the winter solstice as a symbol of the resurgence of the sun, the casting away of winter and the heralding of the rebirth of spring and summer. Indeed, after December 25 had become widely accepted as the date of Jesus’ birth, Christian writers frequently made the connection between the rebirth of the sun and the birth of the Son. One of the difficulties with this view is that it suggests a nonchalant willingness on the part of the Christian church to appropriate a pagan festival when the early church was so intent on distinguishing itself categorically from pagan beliefs and practices.

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Elias_The_Thief t1_j0dxioq wrote

You're repeating yourself, and you're still wrong.

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DfcukinLite t1_j0dxmb6 wrote

Must be nice to be delusional

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Elias_The_Thief t1_j0dxzpy wrote

Better than mindlessly parroting the same paragraph that doesn't even support your point over and over like an automaton. Have a nice night.

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DfcukinLite t1_j0dv4cv wrote

You can stick you head in the sand and sing “La La La” but it is. Evidently. Per full blown credible sources.

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Elias_The_Thief t1_j0dw6sb wrote

From your own sources:

"Though December 25 is the day Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, the date itself and several of the customs we've come to associate with Christmas actually evolved from pagan traditions celebrating the winter solstice."

"It's a mistake to say that our modern Christmas traditions come directly from pre-Christian paganism, said Ronald Hutton, a historian at Bristol University in the United Kingdom. However, he said, you'd be equally wrong to believe that Christmas is a modern phenomenon."

"Christmas, Christian festival celebrating the birth of Jesus."

--

Like I said, certain traditions were stolen and incorporated. No one is denying that. However, Christians celebrated the birth of Christ well before those pagan traditions were incorporated into the celebrations. This is all well detailed in the wiki article I linked, chock full of academic sources. It is also fully acknowledged in all of the sources you provided, which, to be honest, I'm not sure you've actually read beyond the headline.

I am sorry that you are incapable of admitting that you are wrong, or of understanding nuance, and that you care more about your own pride than the historical accuracy of your statements, but to each their own. I'm gonna move on because like most people in these threads, I'm done reading your ignorant contrarian takes.

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