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girnigoe t1_j6bbxui wrote

Reply to comment by AquaSlothNC in Why can an adult’s GI tract expel C. botulinum spores while an infant can’t? by curiousnboredd

yes! acidity is also the reason that botulism isn’t SO likely in fruit jams, but more likely to be a problem in canned meat.

what i didn’t understand about infant botulism for a long time is: for adults the SPORES aren’t a problem, because they die in your gut. the toxins left over that the bacteria created (pooped out?) while living in the nonacidic canned food is what makes us very sick. for BABIES the problem is the spores can literally create more bacteria in their tummies / intestines, & hang out there eating food & making toxin

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eldude2879 t1_j6c7stw wrote

they told you when I was young canned food goes off in like 24 hours after opening, I never heard anyone in my town to get this

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beyond_hatred t1_j6chxl6 wrote

Canned food is cooked while inside the sealed can. You get botulism from canned food when the can is compromised or leaking, allowing the bacteria to get in and grow on the food.

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Mammoth-Corner t1_j6ckjqz wrote

Botulinum spores can withstand fairly high temperatures and is an anaerobic bacteria; that makes it hardy against for the two major features of cans that keep the food safe. One of the real dangers of botulinum is that food safety rules that protect against other bacteria are insufficient.

A can doesn't need to be burst or leaking to get the bacteria inside because the spores are probably already there. It's when the can or jar was heat-treated at a temperature which was too low (still hot enough to kill off everything else!) or the conditions inside are not acidic enough that it will germinate from the spores and start producing botulinum toxin.

And, because it's the toxin that causes the disease, not the bacteria, re-cooking the food to temperatures that we would usually consider safe might kill the bacteria but the toxin is still there.

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eldude2879 t1_j6d88tl wrote

I sorta remember putting a plastic bag over can as child and putting in the cooler and I got scolded like I was a terrorist gonna take out the whole block

this was a real fear

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piklester t1_j6dbtc6 wrote

Assuming it was an unopened can, freezing it could cause the can to 'explode' . You see it happen with drink cans a lot because of the thinner material and the carbonation in lots of drinks but it can happen with any sealed liquids without room to expand.

https://youtu.be/t5mdZD00POs this guy demonstrates it by freezing a sealed pipe with liquid nitrogen to spread up the process

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eldude2879 t1_j6dcsew wrote

this was back in the day when booti killed a few every year

many things were different, back then they said the children are the future

we were so clever with computers and stuff

nobody says that anymore, kids are dum as rocks

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TheNakedFoot t1_j6gm5z6 wrote

That video was really cool. I knew ice expansion was strong but I didn't know it took so little. And the remaining water interacting with the LN2 was awesome too

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girnigoe t1_j6drk51 wrote

oh, cannes food going bad after it’s opened is not botulism, any more than a salad going bad in the fridge. that’s other processes & organisms.

botulism grows in NON-ACIDIC, ANOXIC environments. so it can grow inside the can (no oxygen), before the can is opened. industrial canning processes get very very hot to kill the spores so they don’t grow even when the environment is right.

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lordbubax t1_j6d33ds wrote

> acidity is also the reason that botulism isn’t SO likely in fruit jams, but more likely to be a problem in canned meat.

Isn't it due to fruit jams high sugar concentration?

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PBlueKan t1_j6dc98y wrote

No. One of the most common pathways infants are infected with C. botulinum spores is through honey.

The bacteria goes dormant in spores which are incredibly hard to kill. Sugar has nothing to do with it.

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girnigoe t1_j6dqxdp wrote

so, the thing about honey seems weird (maybe you have more info than i do though).)

i read in a medical source that after the widespread campaign to NEVER feed babies honey, which every US parent myst have heard of at this point, the rates of infant botulism… did not change.

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