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Mammoth-Corner t1_j699708 wrote

Your professor is wrong; it is nothing to do with expelling the spores.

The botulinum bacteria is a poor competitor. In an environment where there are already lots of other established bacteria, it struggles to form toxin-producing colonies; babies have less developed gut flora, not just because they haven't picked them up from the environment but also because their diet is much more limited.

Adults do occasionally get intestinal botulism. This usually happens in cases where they have been on antibiotics for some time and the gut flora has been killed off.

I really recommend the This Podcast Will Kill You episode on botulism!

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AquaSlothNC t1_j69o0fi wrote

In addition to this comment, pH also plays a very important factor in botulism sporulating in the stomach. The pH of an infants stomach acid is not low enough to prevent botulism from germinating (come out of spore-form). I believe the magic number is 4.6 if memory serves from classes in college. Under that acidity, the conditions are too acidic for clostridium botulinum to germinate and release its toxin. Newborns have not yet developed the gastrointestinal pH that older humans have to prevent this. I looked it up and adults are around 1.5-2.0. So too acidic for botulism to do it’s dirty work.

Edit: Sentence structure. Fixed for clarity. Edit 2: found the pH of adult stomach acid.

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girnigoe t1_j6bbxui wrote

yes! acidity is also the reason that botulism isn’t SO likely in fruit jams, but more likely to be a problem in canned meat.

what i didn’t understand about infant botulism for a long time is: for adults the SPORES aren’t a problem, because they die in your gut. the toxins left over that the bacteria created (pooped out?) while living in the nonacidic canned food is what makes us very sick. for BABIES the problem is the spores can literally create more bacteria in their tummies / intestines, & hang out there eating food & making toxin

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eldude2879 t1_j6c7stw wrote

they told you when I was young canned food goes off in like 24 hours after opening, I never heard anyone in my town to get this

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beyond_hatred t1_j6chxl6 wrote

Canned food is cooked while inside the sealed can. You get botulism from canned food when the can is compromised or leaking, allowing the bacteria to get in and grow on the food.

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Mammoth-Corner t1_j6ckjqz wrote

Botulinum spores can withstand fairly high temperatures and is an anaerobic bacteria; that makes it hardy against for the two major features of cans that keep the food safe. One of the real dangers of botulinum is that food safety rules that protect against other bacteria are insufficient.

A can doesn't need to be burst or leaking to get the bacteria inside because the spores are probably already there. It's when the can or jar was heat-treated at a temperature which was too low (still hot enough to kill off everything else!) or the conditions inside are not acidic enough that it will germinate from the spores and start producing botulinum toxin.

And, because it's the toxin that causes the disease, not the bacteria, re-cooking the food to temperatures that we would usually consider safe might kill the bacteria but the toxin is still there.

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eldude2879 t1_j6d88tl wrote

I sorta remember putting a plastic bag over can as child and putting in the cooler and I got scolded like I was a terrorist gonna take out the whole block

this was a real fear

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piklester t1_j6dbtc6 wrote

Assuming it was an unopened can, freezing it could cause the can to 'explode' . You see it happen with drink cans a lot because of the thinner material and the carbonation in lots of drinks but it can happen with any sealed liquids without room to expand.

https://youtu.be/t5mdZD00POs this guy demonstrates it by freezing a sealed pipe with liquid nitrogen to spread up the process

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eldude2879 t1_j6dcsew wrote

this was back in the day when booti killed a few every year

many things were different, back then they said the children are the future

we were so clever with computers and stuff

nobody says that anymore, kids are dum as rocks

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TheNakedFoot t1_j6gm5z6 wrote

That video was really cool. I knew ice expansion was strong but I didn't know it took so little. And the remaining water interacting with the LN2 was awesome too

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girnigoe t1_j6drk51 wrote

oh, cannes food going bad after it’s opened is not botulism, any more than a salad going bad in the fridge. that’s other processes & organisms.

botulism grows in NON-ACIDIC, ANOXIC environments. so it can grow inside the can (no oxygen), before the can is opened. industrial canning processes get very very hot to kill the spores so they don’t grow even when the environment is right.

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lordbubax t1_j6d33ds wrote

> acidity is also the reason that botulism isn’t SO likely in fruit jams, but more likely to be a problem in canned meat.

Isn't it due to fruit jams high sugar concentration?

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PBlueKan t1_j6dc98y wrote

No. One of the most common pathways infants are infected with C. botulinum spores is through honey.

The bacteria goes dormant in spores which are incredibly hard to kill. Sugar has nothing to do with it.

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girnigoe t1_j6dqxdp wrote

so, the thing about honey seems weird (maybe you have more info than i do though).)

i read in a medical source that after the widespread campaign to NEVER feed babies honey, which every US parent myst have heard of at this point, the rates of infant botulism… did not change.

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MyFacade t1_j69pt63 wrote

So antacids increase the risk?

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snakegriffin19 t1_j69vy91 wrote

Long term use of proton pump inhibitors, such as omeprazole or nexium, will increase your risk for Cdiff infection. Very similar process

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MaungaHikoi t1_j6a9iqp wrote

How long is long term?

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[deleted] t1_j6aow3f wrote

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[deleted] t1_j6aukpp wrote

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[deleted] t1_j6biepm wrote

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doc_death t1_j6b8o37 wrote

This plays a role into why babies can spit up so much more than adults. If we did that, our esophagus would be toast

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Kingnahum17 t1_j6bjbcl wrote

So how would you get botulism from separated cheese from a fast food restaurant? This has happened to me a number of years ago, and as far as I could tell, I was otherwise quite healthy at the time.

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pathoj3nn t1_j6bzjmu wrote

It’s more likely in that instance that the separated cheese came from a botulism infected source. Clostridium botulinum is a obligate anaerobe so it can’t grow in the air we breathe but it can grow in canned food. Can then gets super puffy and if someone doesn’t notice or realize the problem all the toxins go into the food. You can to cook the food at a high temperature for a long time to inactivate it making botulism one of the big food poisoning agents.

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Mammoth-Corner t1_j6cldtp wrote

The word botulism refers to a disease caused by the botulinum toxin, not to infection by the bacteria itself. In babies infection that then produces the toxin is the bigger risk, but in adults the larger risk is poisoning from food that has been contaminated with botulinum and that has not been stored in such a way to stop the bacteria spores germinating. So you would not have had a gut infection as I've described, you would probably have eaten the cheese and your gut would have killed off the bacteria but absorbed the toxin.

I am interested that it's cheese though! Botulism is usually associated with canned/preserved goods, and it's an anaerobic bacteria, so I wouldn't expect it to like cheese. When you say 'separated,' do you mean curdled/separated into curds and whey? I found this article that shows that dairy with botulinum contamination does curdle (as curdling is a chemical process and not an organic one, many milk contaminants do not cause it): https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10456739/

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The-fire-guy t1_j6d084q wrote

Wait, why would we care about sporulation in the stomach? It's the active bacteria that's the problem in intestinal colonization botulism, no?

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AquaSlothNC t1_j6exaet wrote

The bacterium can germinate in a beneficial environment with good growth conditions. If it germinates out of the spore in the stomach it may be able pass to the intestines (unclear). Or it may remain dormant and become active past the stomach.

Per the CDC -"Adult intestinal toxemia (also known as adult intestinal colonization) botulism is a very rare kind of botulism that can happen if the spores of the bacteria get into an adult’s intestines, grow, and produce the toxin (similar to infant botulism). Although we don’t know why people get this kind of botulism, people who have serious health conditions that affect the gut may be more likely to get sick."

I was trying to provide info of the bacteria in general as it pertains to infants and their digestive system and what pH conditions it can/cant grow in, so I thought it was helpful to look at the pH environment of the stomach too. Since we don't know exactly how adults get intestinal botulism I threw it in as additional info. Also, a lot of people don't know about botulinum spores and how pH plays a role so I thought I'd share.

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The-fire-guy t1_j6f0qk5 wrote

Just to clarify, I wasn't trying to be snippy, I appreciate the information either way. But are you using "sporulate" here to mean "becoming active"? Isn't it the other way around?

If not, how is the bacterium going dormant an issue if it has already entered the body?

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AquaSlothNC t1_j6f4sms wrote

No not at all! I appreciate the catch and you're totally right. I used the wrong term and had meant germination, not sporulation. Its been awhile since i've had to think about this lifecycle. Sorry about that! I've corrected my previous posts and used 'germinate' where applicable.

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Halcyon_Rein t1_j6dqtct wrote

What do you mean by sporulate? Isn’t this a bacteria we’re talking about?

I was totally unaware bacteria could have spores

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AquaSlothNC t1_j6etvjb wrote

Hi! So when Clostridium botulinum is in a harsh (example: acidic) environment it goes dormant and forms a spore to protect itself (sporulation). It will stay dormant in its spore-form until the surrounding environment is optimal for it to survive, become active (germinate), grow, and produce the neurotoxic protein. A Clostridium botulinum spore refers to the dormant state of the bacterium. Germination is when it comes out of dormancy and is not longer in its protective spore. Bacillus and Clostridium are two common spore forming bacteria. Hope that answered your question!

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Cannie_Flippington t1_j6jet4j wrote

I told a lady once that she really shouldn't give her infant honey because of the botulism risk and she just flat out said that I was making it up.

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CallMeRydberg t1_j69cybl wrote

This^

The best way to think of yourself is as a perpetually changing petri dish with multiple organisms competing in a constantly changing environment of nutrients and exposures. Some organisms work together, some outcompete, some change/mutate. Some environments are more acidic, some less oxygen, some sunlight, some dry, some wet, etc some medications are designed to kill certain organisms and then now other competition fills in its place (think yeast infections after an antibiotic kills some bacteria previously occupying an area). Oh, and what's normal for you isn't normal for everyone.

Regarding the spores, if the environment is right and bacteria take hold it's only because the conditions were so that it outcompeted the others in that location in a high enough concentration to produce toxin that at low concentrations cause issues. Botulinum is quite potent.

(my background is microbiology and a family doc for those that care).

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[deleted] t1_j6ah7z4 wrote

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[deleted] t1_j6bqvy9 wrote

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read_with_a_slash_s t1_j69hvl7 wrote

Will "intestinal flushing" events like a prep for colonoscopy impact the gut biome long term? I've heard it's best to eat probiotic rich diet for a few days after drinking that vile concoction and living on the toilet for 18 hours...

If I instead ate a "regular American diet" after a colonoscopy, would my beneficial bacterial composition return slowly, or incompletely?

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PlantLover1869 t1_j6a0llf wrote

You aren’t actually going to flush out the bacteria by flushing out fecal matter. Obviously you will lose some. But you’re still going to have lots and lots adhered to your gut walls. Your gut wall has lots of folds in it to increase surface area. Bacteria are going to hide in these books and crannies. And well as are adapted to adhering or sticking to your gut wall.

Generally bacteria biomes in the gut change when you kill them off with antibiotics. Or they slowly change over time with a chronic disease like diabetes.

But flushing your system clear with a laxative should have a much smaller effect

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kibi_zero t1_j6ap5wd wrote

if i take antibiotics and ruin my gut flora can i die from honey?

i generally eat bananas after taking antibiotics, i have no idea about gut biology though

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Ungrammaticus t1_j6aviwy wrote

Only if you wreck your gut flora enough that you’re also at a high risk of dying from diarrhoea-induced dehydration, or other opportunistic infections. It would have to be very, very bad.

In addition to that, there is the stomach-acid which acts a barrier.

If you’re worried about the effects of antibiotics on your gut biota, you can take probiotics during the course.

But don’t be worried about eating honey, any more than you’d be worried about wearing boots that are too heavy to swim in while it’s raining.

If your doc martens are a drowning risk just because there’s rain, several other very noticeable things have gone exceptionally wrong.

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eboeard-game-gom3 t1_j6a7b7z wrote

I searched for This Podcast Will Kill You and I only see 3 episodes. I use the Google podcast app. Is it the wrong one?

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lesbianlinguist t1_j6aozqg wrote

There are currently 110 main episodes along with some specials. I use spotify but I just went to Google podcast and it looks like all of the episodes are available? So it might be a problem on your end. Amazing podcast tho, highly recommend

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a-meano-acid t1_j6cfny1 wrote

To add to this, adults generally ingest preformed toxin from canned foods. Meanwhile, as already noted, babies get sick from the spores (commonly in honey) because their gut flora is immature.

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Lexxxapr00 t1_j69zq9v wrote

I’ve read also babies have more water in their stomach vs adults having more stomach acid and this is also crucial.

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Ancient_Boner_Forest t1_j6bueyi wrote

Why is honey specifically a risk for honey? It’s anti bacterial so I was surprised by that.

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pathoj3nn t1_j6bz5zv wrote

Honey typically has spores for the bacteria that causes botulism intoxication. The underdeveloped gut flora of infants allows those spores to grow into live bacteria and produce the toxins for disease.

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Mammoth-Corner t1_j6cjplq wrote

Botulinum is a sporing bacteria, like anthrax; in conditions it can't reproduce well in, it forms spores, basically dormant versions of the bacteria inside a protective shell that can then withstand environmental conditions, including honey.

Honey is mildly antibacterial because it has such a strong concentration of sugar that it forces all the water out of bacteria by osmosis. Botulinum in a spore can survive that and then germinate into the active bacteria if it later enters safe conditions.

The other reason honey is specifically a risk is bioaccumulation. Botulinum spores naturally occur at low levels in most soil, which means there are tiny tiny traces on most things, including the surfaces of flower—not enough to do anything most of the time. But honey is made with of a lot of pollen. It can potentially build up in the honey the same way that eg. mercury builds up in tuna; tiny fishes absorb a little environmental mercury, but tuna eat a lot of tiny fishes in their lifetime, and they can't eliminate the mercury, so they consume far more mercury than a fish the same size would absorb from the water.

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sinkingshark t1_j6cwgy0 wrote

This is all correct!! Infants who are breastfed tend to be older at symptom onset than formula-fed patients too and this is also thought to be ag least partially because of helpful bacteria from breast milk, helping to slow colonization by c. botulinum.

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pzzia02 t1_j6bwrpv wrote

The only correction i have for you is that its fauna not flora at least i dont believe there are flowers in my belly

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lewisj75 t1_j6aq6jv wrote

Professor wrong? There's a shocker

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