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[deleted] t1_j27sj9u wrote

[deleted]

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team-tree-syndicate t1_j27zrp4 wrote

I got a question, I'm assuming that by an active core making an atmosphere possible, you mean by the magnetic field, correct? If so, I wonder how a magnetic field helps keep an atmosphere in place. I thought that gravity was the contributing factor for that?

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dwkeith t1_j280owa wrote

Deflects solar winds which would otherwise strip the atmosphere.

Wikipedia has a good overview of how it works https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetosphere

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CrustalTrudger t1_j28zd88 wrote

This is not correct though. Good counterpoints are Venus, which has no intrinsic magnetic field, only a relatively weak induced one, and yet still has a thick atmosphere or Mercury, which has an intrinsic magnetic field and effectively no atmosphere. This comes up a lot on AskScience and there are numerous threads considering the relative role of gravity, active volcanism, and magnetospheres for keeping planetary atmospheres, e.g., this thread where various posters lay out the details and highlight that gravity / escape velocity is the dominant factor in whether a planetary atmosphere is maintained, this specific comment by one of our panelists addresses this misconception directly.

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pmalleable t1_j2b4g17 wrote

So is the relatively small atmosphere on Mars entirely or mostly due to the lower mass of the planet?

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Gohanthebarbarian t1_j2bbu3v wrote

Yeah it makes intuitive sense that the higher mass rock balls would be more likely to hold onto their atmospheres.

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CrustalTrudger t1_j28zuu0 wrote

You are correct, gravity / escape velocity is the primary control and the replies indicating that the presence or absence of a magnetosphere are the primary control reflect a common misconception (e.g., see this post).

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Eternal-brah t1_j280oh6 wrote

That's actually an interesting question, About how magnetic fields really traps "anything". Tonight I will be going down a rabbit hole.

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team-tree-syndicate t1_j280sst wrote

After some thinking, my best guess would be the prevention of radiation from the sun. Without a magnetosphere, cosmic wind would "blow" away the atmosphere.

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cismo2010 t1_j28bgwe wrote

Just to bei more specific, the radiation from the sun which get's blocked/deflected by earths magnetic field are charged particles (e.g. alpha/beta-radiation).

The radiation which "heats" earth ist gamma-radiation in form of photons. A good portion of those photons get reflected by clouds and ice (due to the reflectiveness of white surfaces), another part afterwards get's radiated as infrared-radiation. The Difference between the incoming and (reflected + radiated) photons are the energy earth get's from the sun.

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Unearthed_Arsecano t1_j29hyxl wrote

This is a slight simplification. The heat flow from the Earth's interior to the surface is negligible compared to the heat recieved from the Sun, but if the Earth orbited much further away (say, if you swapped Earth and Pluto around), internal heat would represent a much more significant contribution to surface temperature. But that temperature would be very low, well below what known complex life could survive.

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tripperfunster OP t1_j2837vc wrote

Cool. I had no idea (or at least recollection) that the liquid core created a magnetosphere. I just thought it was gravity that gave us the ability to have an atmosphere.

I am still unsure why such a hot core wouldn't affect the temperature of the ground. Is dirt and rock really that insulating?

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Tomhawkee t1_j284brb wrote

Yes very, this is the exact premise of how Hobbit holes/underground buildings stay warm. Very little surface area exposed to the cold outer environment and the soil/ground work as a very thick layer of insulation.

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_Jaquen_Hgar_ t1_j292tjo wrote

Not really a great insulator as such but it’s not a superconductor either. The earth is in space, and space is cold so while heat is conducted slowly through solid rock towards the surface, that heat is then able to both convect and radiate away.

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ringobob t1_j29kl8l wrote

One tangent worth noting in this context - it doesn't really affect the surface temp generally, but there are places where the heat of the inner earth does escape to the surface, and in these places they typically use it to have geothermal energy. Iceland has lots of cheap energy for this reason.

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ackillesBAC t1_j2968ek wrote

Why does an active core make it possible to have an atmosphere?

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OlympusMons94 t1_j29jrnd wrote

It doesn't. That's just an outdated, incorrect idea.

Fast moving charged particles from the solar wind colliding with the upper atmosphere can gradually strip away some of the atmosphere through a process called sputtering. Magnetic fields shield from and redirect charged particles, so they can reduce this type of atmospheric loss (but planetary magnetic fields also contribute to atmospheric loss in other ways).

The motion (from convection and rotation) of the electrically conducting molten iron in Earth's outer core generates a magnetic field around the planet. Because this magnetic field is generated within the planet, it is described as an intrinsic magnetic field. The idea was that this is required to prevent the solar wind from stripping away the atmosphere.

However, Venus has a very thick atmosphere, and being closer to the Sun is subjected to a stronger solar wind than Earth. Yet, Venus lacks an intrinsic magnetic field (likely because its core, while molten, is not convecting). Because it lacks an intrinsic magnetic field, the upper atmosphere is exposed to the solar wind and its magnetic field, which induces a weak magnetic field in Venus' upper atmosphere. This induced magnetic field in turn protects the atmosphere from sputtering escape more or less like the intrinsic magnetic field would. The induced magnetosphere is not unique to Venus. Any atmosphere, be it Venus', Mars', or a comet's, exposed to the solar wind will develop an induced magnetic field. As such, atmospheric loss from sputtering is relatively insignificant for not only Earth with its intrinsic magnetic field, but for Venus and Mars as well.

What matters more for the ability to retain an atmosphere is ultimately the balance of a planet's gravity against the motions of gas particles caused by uncharged solar radiation, that is light, which is not shielded by magnetic fields. If the energy from sunlight causes the gas particles to reach escape velocity, they are lost to space. This is thermal escape, and encompasses a number of different processes.

Of particular relevance to Mars, ultraviolet light from the Sun breaks apart CO2 and water vapor molecules, producing ions which move faster than Mars' relatively low escape velocity. Venus and Earth have much higher gravity, so have been more able to hold onto their CO2/oxygen and nitrogen atmospheres. (Although at present, Mars isn't losing its atmosphere much faster than Earth or Venus are. It must have lost atmosphere emuch more rapidly in the past, particularly because the younger Sun would have emitted more UV radiation.)

As it is, though, Venus has lost almost all of its surface/atmospheric water because of solar UV and hydrogen escape. The runaway greenhouse effect it experienced evaporated/boiled any oceans, putting the H2O in the atmosphere where it could be broken up into hydrogen and OH/oxygen. Because hydrogen is so light, it is much more easily lost from the atmosphere to thermal escape than heavier gases like nitrogen, oxygen, or CO2.

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ackillesBAC t1_j29uqhl wrote

Wonderful answer I thoroughly enjoyed reading that. You must have some sort of background in this stuff?

So going beyond the magnetic shielding concept, what about the idea that an active core and volcanoes are required to release the gases into the atmosphere in the first place?

Edit: scratch that I just seen your other comment answering that question already.

Losing the requirement for having an active core, I would assume, would drastically increase the number possible habitable worlds out there.

This is fascinating stuff to think about, even though it is basically completely irrelevant to day-to-day life.

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tripperfunster OP t1_j2a1stu wrote

Wow, what a great answer. I think my poor brain needs time to digest all of this.

Thank you for taking the time to be so thorough.

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WarpingLasherNoob t1_j2b84oi wrote

Thanks for the great answer. I have bit of a follow up question - does a planet need an active core to have a magnetosphere?

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OlympusMons94 t1_j2bne1r wrote

No. An induced magnetosphere (like Venus, Mars, Europa, Titan, comets, etc. have) doesn't require or have anything to with the core. It just requires the presence of some kind of atmosphere, in which the magnetic field is to be induced.

An intrinsic magnetosphere (like the Sun, Ganymede, Earth, and the other five planets have) is by definition generated in the interior of a planet, and for rocky/terrestrial planets lile Earth and Mercury this would tend to be in the metallic core (as opposed to the rocky mantle). But gas giants and ice giants generate their intrinsic magnetic fields above their core. For example, Jupiter's and Saturn's magnetic fields are generated in their liquid metallic hydrogen mantles.

An "active core" isn't really a scientific term, and can have different meanings in popular discourse. The usual, better meaning is that there is an active dynamo in the core, generating an intrinsic planetary magnetic field. But the absence of an intrinsic magnetic field and the core therefore not being "active" in this way does not imply the core is solid (let alone not rotating; all cores rotate along with the rest of the planet). There needs to be additional forcing to generate a dynamo. (For example in the case of Earth's core, the freezing out of the inner core causes the outer core to convect. Planetary rotation twists this vertical convective motion into spirals and this combined motion drives the dynamo.)

Often, "active core" is instead or additionally taken to indicate or be synonymous with active volcanism or tectonics. But these are driven by processes in the mantle and crust, and not directly related to the core, let alone the magnetic field. So this idea of an "active core" is "not even wrong".

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Corkee t1_j29i3ti wrote

An active core will release gasses to be accumulated on the surface of the planet through tectonic activity and volcanism. It will also generate a magnetosphere under the right conditions, which again shield those gasses from being blown away by stellar winds - but this is a very minor factor compared to the venting of gasses from an active core.

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ackillesBAC t1_j29tzon wrote

That makes sense, since captured gas would basically be mostly be hydrogen, other vital gases would have to come from solids or gases trapped in the solids that created the planet, which will need an active core and volcanism to release.

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Chronos91 t1_j29h4zf wrote

It can deflect solar winds to mitigate their stripping away the atmosphere, but you can have atmosphere without an active core.

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Busterwasmycat t1_j29abod wrote

Yes, even on earth, there is a depth below surface where temperature is the average annual temperature of the above-earth (water, actually, in most of the earth so not much variation). On land, this mean annual temperature is found at a few to several meters below ground surface: the ground between surface and that constant temperature will vary over the seasons (whips back and forth between summer high and winter low, attenuating (going to zero change) with depth. How deep the whipsaw variations extend depends on the intensity of the change at surface.

Caves and even relatively shallow storage buildings dug into the ground rely on this stability of temperature at depth, so the air in such places tends to be pretty much the same temperature all year round, and until you go very deep like with some mines (where heat from below is enough to raise temperatures; we are deep enough to be well below that depth of mean average temperature so heat from below is on its way to the surface), that temperature is the mean annual temperature of the location.

The idea is that earth surface is at the temperature where solar heating is balanced by black body radiation. Clearly, when the earth was very hot in its youth, black body radiation (emission of "light" energy based on temperature) was much higher than solar heating, so the surface of the earth rapidly cooled due to excess loss of heat to space (much more heat lost to space than gained from space), but the heat loss from the very hot early earth was rapid and the (almost) steady-state balance that now exists came to dominate billions of years ago. Not quite steady state, because the heat flux from below is not zero, so there is always slightly more heat being lost to space beyond the amount that is received from space, but the difference is very small now. Loss of internal heat is very slow. It is a factor, but a tiny one.

Now, what we see is the rate of heat migration from inside to surface has "mean surface temperature" as the lower limit for the geothermal gradient. Locally, like when there are massive magma intrusions to shallow depth, there can be a temporary disruption of the balance and heat loss in that region can be measurably higher than average annual solar heating, but it lasts briefly only, like a million years time frame (time frame depends a lot on how active hydrothermal fluid convection is, because convection is way faster than conduction).

When the interior of a planet falls to the mean average surface temperature, there is no more migration of heat from the interior. The entire planet would be kept at that mean surface temperature. Planets are so large, and heat flow by conduction through rock is so slow (absent convection by circulating or migrating fluids and the occasional rising blob of magma) that no planetary bodies that we know about are that cold, yet.

Small bodies like asteroids out in space have very cold internal temperatures but are not at the temperature of deep space because they do get warmed slightly by the sun. On earth, where seasons happen, the summer is a period where heat received by the sun is more than is lost to space, but heat during winter is less than is lost to space. The mean annual temperature is the temperature where those shorter-term losses and gains get balanced to no change.

I suppose even asteroids and comets have "seasonal" variations, even if the seasons are many years long. Clearly, a comet near the sun that is degassing is in what can only be seen as a form of "summer", even if the seasons are imposed from orbital variations rather than tilted axis of rotation. Earth does also have some orbit-dependent heating change, but the orbit is almost circular so not a huge different. It does matter though (see Milankovitch cycles).

Also, the presence of hydrosphere and atmosphere are important in determining what that "mean annual surface temperature" will be. Greenhouse effects, of a sort. This is why Venus is way hotter at the surface than it ought to be based on simple solar flux considerations. So much of its radiant heat loss to space gets trapped by the atmosphere that an important portion migrates back to surface if the surface cools down, so the stable or steady state temperature at surface is higher than it would be in absence of atmosphere. It cannot radiate heat to space at the rate that its surface temperature would have it. This is also true on earth but to a much smaller extent.

The basic problem is that heat cannot leave where it is now unless there is somewhere cooler for it to move into. So, inside the earth (or any planet, really) the internal heat is simply unable to leave except very slowly.

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tripperfunster OP t1_j2a2rzc wrote

Brilliant! Thank you. I will have to read parts of this more than once to fully understand, but I appreciate you taking the time to put it all there.

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_AlreadyTaken_ t1_j29hwlv wrote

>it does make it possible to have atmosphere

You mean a magnetosphere protecting against solar dissociation. This isn't exactly the case, you would still have an atmosphere, you'd just lose the lightest elements like hydrogen. This is bad for earth because it would end up with an atmosphere and surface devoid of water like Venus.

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half3clipse t1_j29o79q wrote

Probably not even that. Venus will have lost most of it's hydrogen as it stopped having liquid water. Which is a chicken and egg problem sort of, because the presence of life protects against that, by providing a sink for CO2 and by generating an ozone layer. the former keeps the water liquid (allowing oceans to store more CO2) while the latter protect water in the atmosphere from photo-dissociation

A magnetic field also may not help that much either. Hydrogen is light enough that the Earth losses it anyways. As long as the hydrogen remains as water, its not going to be lost that much faster. Meanwhile a run away green house effect would still end with Earth striped of its hydrogen over time. It'd just take a bit longer.

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