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2science t1_ivrmfug wrote

Reply to comment by RobusEtCeleritas in Why do neutrons tend to interact more readily with light nuclei rather than heavy ones (i.e., why is water a better neutron shield than lead)? by Calgaris_Rex

Would that mean that the liquid hydrogen is even better?

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mfb- t1_ivrn8vv wrote

Liquid hydrogen is awkward to work with and water has a higher density of hydrogen atoms.

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2science t1_ivrp6fv wrote

How is that water has higher density of hydrogen if it contains also oxygen in it?

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ScootysDad t1_ivsvi4c wrote

Surprisingly, water is 14x denser than liquid hydrogen. The bonding angle of the H-O-H makes the O slightly positive and the H slightly negative which then tends to attract another H from the other H-O-H and holds it closer (surface tension). Even at cryogenic level water will have more H than liquid H.

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2science t1_ivsvpp7 wrote

I wonder whether water is considered denser than liquid hydrogen because it's heavier.

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ccdy t1_ivtgbbo wrote

Water has a hydrogen atom number density of 111 mol/L, while that of liquid hydrogen is 70.3 mol/L. No, it's not just due to water having a higher molecular weight.

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Calixare t1_ivtxzzh wrote

So, BeH2 and liquid NH3 will be slightly better. Of course, applying water is much easier.

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ScootysDad t1_ivvp1bu wrote

The BeH2 molecule has a very linear structure with the H atoms bonded "inline" so they cannot be as densely packed as H2O. Further, it's actually a solid and form a kind of crystalline (lots of open space). NH3 (amonia) bonding is something vague for me but I think it has something to do with the electron orbital in O that give is a higher charge than N thus allowing it to be more attractive than N in that configuration. I don't think it comes even close.

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Calixare t1_ivwo620 wrote

But they do. Respectively, 118 and 120 mol H per L.

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thewiselumpofcoal t1_ivswjye wrote

Liquid hydrogen has a density of 71 kg/m^3, water is at roughly a thousand, so it's 14 times denser. They both have 2 hydrogen atoms per molecule and water molecules are 9 times more heavy than H2, so in water there's just more molecules per unit of volume.

Between water molecules there's a much stronger attractive force than between hydrogen molecules, so they are pulled much closer together. So much that liquid water is famously even denser than ice.

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hifructosetrashjuice t1_ivtekb4 wrote

liquid hydrogen or liquid methane is great moderator when you need very cold neutrons. remember you can cool down neutrons only down to energy of thermal motion - liquid hydrogen is pretty cold at 20K

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Yaver_Mbizi t1_ivuk2vl wrote

And if you want ultracold neutrons, superfluid isotopically-pure Helium-4 is by far the best, with deuterium ice in second place.

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mfb- t1_ivx1xin wrote

> isotopically-pure Helium-4

Does that need any special purification effort? Helium-3 is already a tiny fraction of the helium we extract.

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chugalug_donna t1_iw19dy4 wrote

You can distill them apart, it's part of how dilution refrigerators work

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mfb- t1_iw19xaz wrote

I know it's possible, but I'm asking if it's necessary for this application.

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Yaver_Mbizi t1_iwcnub0 wrote

Sorry for taking so long to reply - I first wanted to get the numbers right and then kinda forgot about this comment.

> Does that need any special purification effort?

Yes. Specifically something called "superleak" or "superfluid helium filter" is used. It's basically a filter with material so tightly compressed that only a superfluid can go between the particles. As helium-3 reaches superfluidity at a much lower temperature level than helium-4, the isotopes can be thusly separated.

>Helium-3 is already a tiny fraction of the helium we extract.

Yep, but the less of it, the better. The natural content is about 10^(-6), whereas by using a superleak you can get something around 10^(-11), which is much better.

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hifructosetrashjuice t1_ivtf9aw wrote

also you need to keep your material chemically simple, because when interacting with neutron proton is kicked out of molecule. this leaves water, because all products of that can react back forming water again, same goes for hydrogen. this does not work for oil, for example, that is if you wanted to put oil in nuclear reactor for some reason

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luckyluke193 t1_ivshs0u wrote

You generally don't want to fill a nuclear reactor with a highly explosive liquid.

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mikmckn t1_ivu92ao wrote

As long as you don't allow any oxygen in, hydrogen is pretty tame. That's one of the safety issues with compromised water cooled reactors; the heat causes the water to split into it's component atoms and you end up with pure hydrogen, pure oxygen and a whole lot of heat.

That's why it's important to keep water on your core.

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