PFML denial for Military Reserve deployment

Submitted by theboz14 t3_1212w8t in Washington

Title states the issue.

My wife who is going on her first overseas deployment after she goes to California for 3 months and then overseas for the Navy Reserves. I put in for family leave during the summer so that I could watch my two kids, which are 5 and 7.

I can continue to work when they are in school, this year as I already worked it out with my employer for the reduced hours and I already have a plan in place when they head back to school, next year and I will be able to work my full shift.

Anyways, I put in for military service and sent my wifes orders in. I have done the same thing 4 other times when she just went to California for no more than 3 weeks at a time. So I didn't think I would have any issues, except this time I will be taking the maximum 12 weeks during the summer.

I received a denial, and I called, i had not received the letter at the time. So when I talked to the person, she said that since my wife was not going overseas, we were not eligible for family leave, lol. I told her she was going to California for a predeployment training and then for 7 months will be overseas. She still could not understand, so I just said thank you and submitted for a review. Then I called again later and wanted to ask some questions and see if I could at least find someone who understood, which again I could not.

They even told me that They could take back the previous 4 times I did receive family leave when she just went to California for training in 2021, lol.

I finally received the PDF and the reason for denial, and it stated I didn't meet the minimum requirements for leave since I did not show proof of a severe medical issue......huh.......what.....A medical issue?

So another call and another person, and this time, I tried to explain to her why I needed to take leave. I said, "What should I do with my two kids when I will need to work? Should I leave them at home. She asked me, "What do I do with them now?" I told her, " My wife makes them breakfast, gets them ready for school, and takes them to school. She then goes to work and then picks them up from I work, sometimes up to 19 hours a day depending on what needs to be fixed, and I can be on call.

So, she then realizes my wife is not active duty full time and is in the Navy Reserves. So she qualifies as she is going to active duty.....duhshe also said and I hope she is correct,, they made a mistake. No shit.

This time, I resubmitted the application, and I also made sure they understood the difference between active duty and the Reserves. Hopefully, this time, they will approve me

Does anybody else have some horror stories with family leave

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jsquared8806again t1_jdkbecc wrote

You could have her ask some of her leadership at the NOSC if they have any advice in specific wording on applications. I’ve also heard of issues stemming from a return-to-home from pre-deployment training for a day or two, then leaving for deployment. Best advice I have is talk to a Khaki at the NOSC. Good luck to you and your family!

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Unique_Engineering_3 t1_jdkhhdy wrote

Talk with MILPERS and they’ll walk you through the eligibility criteria. I’ll be honest, I’m not sure “spouse on orders” is a qualifying criteria—but that’s a hazy non-expert’s partial recollection. MILPERS are the experts and will know the criteria

Edit: Never mind, this is state not mil. It looks like this is the qualifying criteria.

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effCoVid-19 t1_jdncavk wrote

FMLA - Family MEDICAL Leave Act, and PFML - Paid Family MEDICAL Leave. Do you notice the M is for MEDICAL in these acronyms? I was a labor union president and had to address this issue frequently. The acronym can have slight variations from state to state, but the language is pretty cookie cutter.

Are you in a labor union? If you are, locate your CBA (Collective Bargaining Agreement) and read up on FMLA (PFML) requirements and see what the requirements are.

If you are not in a labor union, ask HR for a copy of your EMPLOYEE HANDBOOK. Read up on FMLA (PFML).

GOOGLE Family Medical Leave Act for Federal Guidelines, and specifically look for Spouse being deployed. Take that relevant information to your employer.

Off the top of my head, without looking up and refreshing my memory on FMLA:

  • YOU would not be entitled to FMLA for a spouse reservist going to training for 3 weeks
  • Your Spouse would be entitled to FMLA as a reservist and her employer would not be allowed to fire her or permanently replace her during her training periods
  • you both would be required to make other childcare arrangements during her US based training activities, no FMLA needed
  • FMLA only requires an employer to hold her job, it does not require her employer to pay her anything beyond accumulated vacation or PTO (Paid Time Off).
  • 12 weeks is the maximum FMLA allows if it is a qualifying event, in any given year
  • if your employer granted you 12 weeks for "childcare hardship," and your wife was killed while deployed, they legally are not required to grant you another 12 weeks for "death in the family" since you exhausted all available leave, so consider all scenarios when decision making.
  • IF you had a SPECIAL NEEDS child who is "medically fragile," (leukemia, autoimmune disorder, type 1 diabetes, etc) you would qualify for FMLA to take time off from your employer, to care for the child while his/her Primary Caregiver is deployed and School is not in session. There would be some assumptions that you and your spouse would work with a social worker via your doctors office to line up qualified in home back up care so that all of his/her care needs are met during this time, should you become injured or ill (i.e. car accident, Covid, barbecue grill fire, etc.)

Have you researched all of your available options for adequate kid care? Does your or your spouses employer offer onsite kid care you can utilize? Have you asked their school about before and after school programs? Summer Programs? YMCA? Boys & Girls Club? Do you have a grandparent that can stay with you during the kids summer break and help with the kids while you are at work? These are legitimate questions I would ask an employee when counseling them on their options.

Employers need bodies to perform tasks. They offer incentives to perform these tasks, such as pay, vacation and sick leave. Some things they offer are because they value their employees, some are because the laws make them comply.

You are asking your employer to give you money so you can stay home and play with your kids. Now legally prove/debate why they should honor your request.

And I really want to hear back on how this turns out. You have piqued my curiosity. (I have 2kids in their 30's who were Active Duty Navy and both were deployed. Neither were married and neither have kids so this was never an issue or discussion at our dinner table)

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theboz14 OP t1_jdnqx4n wrote

Im not taking FMLA.

PFML

You can take for

Family leave is used to take paid time off to:

Care for a family member with a serious health condition.

Bond with a new child born or placed into your family.

Spend time with a family member who is about to be deployed overseas, is returning from overseas deployment or dealing with family issues related to the deployment.

Effective June 9, 2022 You may also use family leave for the seven days following the loss of a child if you meet one of these requirements:

The following family members of a person in the military can take Paid Leave:

Spouses and domestic partners

Children (biological, adopted, foster or stepchild)

Parents and legal guardians (and spouse’s parents)

Siblings

Grandchildren

Grandparents (and spouse’s grandparents)

Son-in-law and daughter-in-law

Someone who has an expectation to rely on you for care—whether you live together or not.

What is military exigency?

Military member’s active duty or call to active duty status as qualifying exigency leave. Such events may include leave to spend time with a covered military member either prior to or post deployment, or to attend to household emergencies that would normally have been handled by the covered military member.

PFML is completely different then FMLA. One is Federal and the other is just for Washington residents that have worked 840 hours in the prior 12 month period.

As stated I am taking it because my wife is leaving for deployment and I will need to take care of my two kids while they are out of school. I cant afford having my two kids in daycare for 10+ hours a day 5 days a week. I also stated I have been approved 4 times prior for the exact same thing and had no issues taking it and unlike FMLA i will get 90% of my pay per week as they see my average work week is 50 hours a week for the last 12 month period.

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effCoVid-19 t1_jdq5hh1 wrote

Well, this is IRONIC! I also live in Western WA. My husband is a Building Inspector for the City of Kirkland.

I left my job in 2018 from a School District where I worked for 16 years. The last 5 years I was union president for everyone who wasn't a teacher. I started taking care of my in-laws in 2016 and originally asked for a 1 year leave of absence to get their medical issues figured out. Admin countered and asked if I would be willing to take on a new role and work 1 day per week, and continue as union president. I agreed and did that for 2 years. Ultimately, their needs took up my time and I formally resigned. We currently have my mother-in-law in a facility in Marysville and I spend time with her regularly as she is on hospice for cancer. I fully intend to run for school board in my area this year as my next step after she passes.

Washington State Paid Family & Medical Leave was not in existence until 2020(ish) so it is still a new state program with bugs to work out. Just like WA State Labor & Industries (L&I), it will go through growing pains and people will abuse it. And just like L&I they will collect the premiums but scrutinize all payouts.

I fully understand now your frustration wasn't towards your employer for denying your 12 week leave request, it was with the State of WA for denying your Paid Family Leave, requiring you to resubmit with additional documentation.

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doktorhladnjak t1_jdl9j46 wrote

You can read the documentation from DOL on FMLA for what’s considered a military exigency where you can get PFML. Ongoing, routine care of your kids is not covered. When your spouse is inside the US, it’s also not covered. You also mention you’ve done this many times before. It maxes out at 12 weeks within the last 12 months.

A couple sections that seem relevant to your situation > For members of the Reserve components of the Armed Forces (members of the National Guard and Reserves), covered active duty is duty during deployment of the member with the Armed Forces to a foreign country under a call or order to active duty in a contingency operation.

> Deployment to a foreign country means deployment to areas outside of the United States, the District of Columbia, or any Territory or possession of the United States. It also includes deployment to international waters.

> Certain childcare and related activities arising from the military member’s covered active duty, including arranging for alternative childcare, providing childcare on a non-routine, urgent, immediate need basis, enrolling in or transferring a child to a new school or day care facility.

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theboz14 OP t1_jdlb1qf wrote

You are also referring to someone who is active duty. They are always doing the military thing as thats their main job.

My wife works a civilian job monday to Friday and has her hours to be structured so she can take the kids to and from school. My job prevents me from doing that daily.

Yes, my wife being called to active duty is all PFML requires Reservist to be covered.

If you are active Military 24/7, then you must be overseas to be covered under PFML.

I also said I had PFML in 2001, and I had it 4 times for no more than 3 weeks at a time for when she went to California as her orders stated as such for training.

Also, in my denial letter, they stated I would be approved for 12 weeks and told me how much I would have received. Knowing how much you would get after you are denied is a little tough to take. Basically they are saying well you are denied, but hey if you weren't you would have recieved $1200( not the exact amount) per week for 12 weeks, oh well better luck next time, lol.

Also, the denial letter stated I was denied because I didn't meet the requirements for a severe medial issue, I never put in for a medical.

But, the thing is, even if they need to go overseas, She IS. She is just going to California for pre-deployment, because they need training prior to going overseas since she is just a weekend warrior and not full time Active Duty.

She is going to Africa for 7 dam months.

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lagretel t1_jdocdeo wrote

Does she not get paid when she's deployed? I would imagine that could pay for daycare.

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theboz14 OP t1_jdohbqc wrote

Yep, she is getting paid just like the last two times. I was approved for PFML when she went to New Mexico and to California, 3 weeks and 2 weeks. The problem with childcare is not paying for childcare. it's my work hours that prevent me from doing it every day. There are days when im 200 miles from home working someone's facility and staying there until the work is completed. I have worked 20 hours straight some days. I am a Milwright, or Maintenance Contractor, going to Amazons, UPS, Fedex, Ontrac, and other places all over the Puget Sound area.

Trying to find daycare for extended hours is not easy. We have one we use, and they offer extended daycare, and I will be using it when they go back to school after the summer. IWill be taking my kids to the daycare early in the morning and they will take them to school for me and picking them up from school and when I finish work, I will pick them up at daycare. I will also be working for 7 months of her deployment.

Regardless, I get $50 deducted from my paychecks per month for PFML, and I qualify to use it for 12 weeks, then im going to use it.

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theboz14 OP t1_jdlkz48 wrote

I think I may have found the correct orders. Actually she does have two sets of orders for some odd reason. The one I sent to PFML just had California and did not say anything about going to Africa.

While I was thinking, I remember she did send me some orders last year on Whatsapp that actually had her overseas travel. I didnt know there was a difference in them as military orders are bot the easiest things to read, lol.

Anyways, even though her orders just to California should have been enough, as they were back in 2021, four times, I added her overseas orders the application and wrote them an explanation of what they say and where to find the information they need to approve the PFML.

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Petya2022 t1_jdkbmr7 wrote

Thank you and your wife for your service

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theboz14 OP t1_jdkh6d9 wrote

Thank you. My wife is an immigrant from Malaysia. She came here on a fiancé visa in 2014 and became a citizen a couple of years later.

Then, out of the blue, she wanted to join the Navy Reserves. I was kinda upset as I was Army and had been out since 94, I figured she would be better in the Army, lol.

She went to training in Chicago, where we lived when she arrived here and then she went for her Seabee training at Ft Leonard Wood, MO and stayed in the same Barracks I stayed in when I was stationed there as a MP.

Now, she is getting deployed close to where I was when I was deployed. Im not going to say exactly where she is going, but I was in Somolia. She is definitely not going there, Thank God.

In a couple of years, she will probably get deployed to Panama, I dont think she would get deployed to Korea. So she won't go everywhere I have been, lol.

She already wants our son to join the Airforce, but he is just 8, so he has some time to decide that for himself, 😆

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