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FarmhouseFan t1_j1dywga wrote

Reply to comment by WillUmbrellaYou in Afghan Men Stand in Support of Women After Taliban College Ban by BlitzOrion

It's almost as if the interpretation is the problem. Which might as well be the the same as the literal texts.

We made it all up, why not distort our own truths in the name of the shit we made up in order to bend society into some HUMANS vision for the perfect life.

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1e0gp0 wrote

Interpretation of course plays a massive role in understanding religion. These books were created at very very different times where taboos today was the norm back then. Setting plays into understanding the story. However that doesnt mean that the message of being kind and good to all and accepting that everyone is different for a reason and that is for humans to learn to co exist is very clear and almost needs no interpretation. The way I see it In islam is that its not the humans right to declare another human an enemy of God and its not the humans right to enforce islam or its ideologies on another but simply give advice. I refuse to accept that just because someone is causing harm falsely in the name of Islam that I should deem the religion in a negative image.

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FarmhouseFan t1_j1e1tr5 wrote

The human race exists because of programmed morality. My ENTIRE life, not a single member of my family, going back to my grandparents on both sides ever spent a single day in church. I don't need a god to tell me how to behave. I've got it covered. Religion came about to explain the things we couldn't explain ourselves, then it became a threat, used entirely to control.

Humans wrote these texts that say for us to be kind and good, because that's how normally functioning humans work on a regular day to day basis, by default. They were not given to us.

Religion should not govern in the 21st century. Full stop.

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1e2rq8 wrote

I agree, Religion should not be used to govern masses. To me religion is a means for people to express their faith in a deeper meaning to life. Of course meaning to life is different for everyone and theres no real tangible definition. Humans were born with the gift of imagination for a reason.

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FarmhouseFan t1_j1e40y6 wrote

Yeah, then the ones imagining a world that they think should be the last word on civilization stop at nothing to obtain power, all because of religion. Go ahead and keep telling yourself romantic fairy tales about religion. The hard truth is it deepens divides more than brings us together. We keep ourselves in echo chambers because our book seems better than others. It's just tribalism. It was necessary in our formative years but it's time to let the scientific and trial and error phase of humanity begin. Our potential as a species is incredible, perhaps limitless. The earth, if we truly loved and nurtured it, can easily sustain us until the sun turns in to a red giant and engulfs the planet in roughly 5 billion years. Maybe jesus or whoever will save us though, right?

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1e4ql0 wrote

And that’s your perspective. I can understand why you feel like that and I felt like that a lot and still sometimes do. You dont have to see my perspective. I hope as generations pass we can learn to have more open discussions on this topic without all the hostility.

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FarmhouseFan t1_j1e8d48 wrote

Sorry if I'm coming off as hostile, its hard for me to try and have philosophical discussions about whether or not intelligent design is real when we've literally seen the cosmic microwave background of the observable universe while at the same time we've got religion taking away rights from women, because of the interpretation of a book. Is there any discussion to be had, really?

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1e9wie wrote

Funny thing is im an engineer. Im interested in so many scientific phenomena and technological innovation is a very big interest of mine. We cant disregard our history. All the books you seem to despise have an immense amount of lessons that we really shouldnt ignore. If we stop tunnel visioning on all the negatives addressed in them and maybe objectively look at what has been passed down to us for hundreds and thousands of years, maybe we can then find the breakthrough in civilization. Man shit I wanna know if were alone or not too.

Edit: probably all of history not just the religious books

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FarmhouseFan t1_j1ebd8q wrote

I dont despise the books, I despise the people who use the books while they're in charge to dictate life based on what they think of the stories contained within.

We aren't tunnel visioning. This garbage behavior is being shoved in our faces constantly.

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BandOfButtons t1_j1euahe wrote

At the risk of coming off like an Edgy Atheist Redditor (sorry in advance) - how do you conflate the idea that Islam is about being kind, good and supportive of co-existence, when Islam is the world religion that is most against co-existence? Ex-Muslims, religious minorities, the LGBT+ community, even just women co-existing with men.

In one of your other comments you said that you're practicing your religion more seriously since you moved to a western country. I'm happy that you're able to do so. But I doubt any same-sex couple (among many, many other marginalised groups) moving to a Muslim country would be able to say the equivalent. So many people have to flee Muslim countries in order to live their lives safely and without persecution, but I've never heard of anyone fleeing to one from the west for the same reason.

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1fbo1b wrote

There are a lot of muslim countries where societies of different faiths co-exist and those people are usually just fine with how things are. Im not saying these societies or countries are perfect. Im sure people there go through bouts of shitty things. Women as well have to deal with things men dont have to deal with. So there are issues that you bring up. Im not denyng that. However, its definitely not to the point where co-existing is not possible or favorable. People of different minorities and their quality of life depends on the ideologies of the leaders. Thats why Im not with religion being the basis for government. Either way the arabic world is westernizing at a very fast pace coupled with social media and with that the slow erosion of the issues you mentioned. When it comes to the LGBT+ matter its different from faith and honestly I dont know a right answer. Of course the way theyre treated is horrible. Its not easy for someone in my position to discuss this specific thing cuz I dont really have it all figured out. Theres the side of my faith that expresses explicitly the catastrophe that fell upon followers of this path. I don’t know what its like to be in their shoes so i wouldnt even call it following a path. All I know is that the modern solution is not simple or known but that some tolerance should be given.

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percussaresurgo t1_j1e5i47 wrote

I can see you haven’t actually read the Qaran. It’s not accepting of differences, and it does mandate imposing Islam on everyone. That’s why Sharia exists, which is a system of Islamic law which everyone has to abide by, and it has special punishments for non-believers which they call “infidels.”

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1e6l5g wrote

The Quran is very much accepting of differences. Proof of that is any arabic country on the african continent.

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percussaresurgo t1_j1ebrug wrote

The text speaks for itself:

• Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. (4:56)

• Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah. (9:29)

• Lo! those who disbelieve and deal wrong, Allah will never forgive them, neither will He guide them unto a road, Except the road of hell, wherein they will abide for ever. And that is ever easy for Allah. (4:168-9)

• And the dwellers of the Fire cry out unto the dwellers of the Garden: Pour on us some water or some wherewith Allah hath provided you. They say: Lo! Allah hath forbidden both to disbelievers (in His guidance). (7:50)

• As for him whom He sendeth astray, for them thou wilt find no protecting friends beside Him, and We shall assemble them on the Day of Resurrection on their faces, blind, dumb and deaf; their habitation will be hell; whenever it abateth, We increase the flame for them. That is their reward because they disbelieved Our revelations. (17:97-98)

• Unto Him belongeth whosoever is in the heavens and the earth. All are obedient unto Him. (30:26)

• Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place! (18:29)

• Whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter. (3:85)

• Allah loveth not the disbelievers. (3:32)

• He loveth not the disbelievers. (30:45)

• Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. (3:28)

• They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve ... choose not friends from them. (4:89)

• Choose not disbelievers for (your) friends in place of believers. Would ye give Allah a clear warrant against you? (4:144)

• Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. ... He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. (5:51)

• Do ye give them friendship when they disbelieve? (60:1)

• The disbelievers are an open enemy to you. (4:101)

• Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah. (9:29)

• Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you. (9:123)

• If they ... assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief. ... Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them (9:12-14)

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1ecfyt wrote

I cant really speak on this as I have never read the Quran in english nor do I know where to get an accepted translated version.

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percussaresurgo t1_j1eidpl wrote

That's why I said above "I can see you haven’t actually read the Qaran."

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