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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1dy37v wrote

Reply to comment by FarmhouseFan in Afghan Men Stand in Support of Women After Taliban College Ban by BlitzOrion

Im sorry but where does it say anywhere in the quran to ban women from education

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sniper91 t1_j1dypzr wrote

The Bible doesn’t say anything about banning abortion, but that doesn’t stop Evangelicals

When leaders can just say “God wants this” the actual religious texts are irrelevant

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1dyvoi wrote

So its the human behaviour thats garbage not the religion is my point

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sniper91 t1_j1dzccr wrote

Religion is the tool, though

Similar to how guns don’t kill people, people kill people (but guns make it a lot more efficient)

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1e1f7w wrote

I used to have very anti gun views but Ive started to understand that yes they are tools that can aid in catastrophe but they can also aid in avoiding catastrophe so its not the tool to blame but man and how he/she use it

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pwned555 t1_j1e2twg wrote

There's a saying, I'm not saying it's entirely true but there is probably some truth to it.

'With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.' ~Steven Weinberg

I know a few people who I think are genuinely trying to be helpful, but are just hurtful because of religion. If they didn't have some institution telling them to have these feelings about certain issues I don't know if they would take the stance they are.

I do get your point that it's probably the people running these organizations that are bad more so than the religion, but at the same time the people following it are doing so in the name of religion. Also if you actually read the old testament, which a lot of people still follow, there's some fucked up shit in it (there's some fucked up shit in the new testament too just not as much).

Tbf, there are probably many people who do actually good and productive things solely because of religion as well.

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1e3drz wrote

I guess there is some truth to that quote and I never really thought about it that way. Its a pretty interesting take. I personally have lived my entire life in a muslim country but I wasnt really religious. My actions certainly didnt show religion. It was after I got out of the muslim country and came to live in the west that I started to take my religion seriously. Take that as you will.

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rickdeckard8 t1_j1f5d48 wrote

Probably because religion is one thing that unites people and you were more susceptible to that when you moved to a foreign society. We all need a safe base and that was yours.

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1f6wbn wrote

That is actually a reason I have considered quite a lot. Faith is absolutely a reason for unity and that sense of unity is definitely scarce when abroad but I believe theres more to it.

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rickdeckard8 t1_j1fdxvi wrote

Well, I’ve stayed in my safe area all my life and don’t need any religion now or before. Religion is good for uniting groups but is the biggest obstacle for different groups to come together. Just use probability. If there have been thousands of religions throughout mankind and there really is something more than what we can observe all but one religion must be just storytelling. Really not great odds for just one’s specific religion to be the correct one.

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1fecpb wrote

If were gonna use probability. Theres a 50/50 chance God is real. If God isnt real and someone dies regardless of faith nothing should happen. Now if God is real, idk about you but id rather have died a believer.

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rickdeckard8 t1_j1gztpy wrote

I enjoy going to church because it’s a place for contemplation and it tries to bring out the best in people. But I don’t believe the “story” behind it. And having different religions in the same place is one of the largest reasons for poor integration in my country. So in my view, religion is good on a personal level but bad on a societal level.

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rickdeckard8 t1_j1f50is wrote

Religion really doesn’t need to be a part of it.

Good intentions combined with lack of pragmatism and/or strong ideological beliefs can take down a society in no time. Most of the problems in Sweden right now are not caused by religious people, just good citizens trying to do good things not realizing they were doing things that turned out to be bad because they never worried about consequences. Only intentions mattered.

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NJH_in_LDN t1_j1e9t4v wrote

What is a religion if not a series of irrational ancient rules expressed by human behaviour.

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1ea8m7 wrote

Thats a question based on an extremely probable but not completely known to be true assumption

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Kellyanne_Conman t1_j1ejjn2 wrote

Religion is the human behavior you are speaking of. Unshaking belief on faith alone is toxic and dangerous. It doesn't matter how much you love or respect someone if you are willing to subjugate them in the name of God.

I have no God. There exists no power that can convince me to subjugate you.

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could_use_a_snack t1_j1e971n wrote

Human behavior is the garbage, religion is the truck it's transported in.

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1earrq wrote

Im not saying religion is perfect but theres a lot of trucks outside of religion that carry perfectly evil actions.

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FarmhouseFan t1_j1dywga wrote

It's almost as if the interpretation is the problem. Which might as well be the the same as the literal texts.

We made it all up, why not distort our own truths in the name of the shit we made up in order to bend society into some HUMANS vision for the perfect life.

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1e0gp0 wrote

Interpretation of course plays a massive role in understanding religion. These books were created at very very different times where taboos today was the norm back then. Setting plays into understanding the story. However that doesnt mean that the message of being kind and good to all and accepting that everyone is different for a reason and that is for humans to learn to co exist is very clear and almost needs no interpretation. The way I see it In islam is that its not the humans right to declare another human an enemy of God and its not the humans right to enforce islam or its ideologies on another but simply give advice. I refuse to accept that just because someone is causing harm falsely in the name of Islam that I should deem the religion in a negative image.

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FarmhouseFan t1_j1e1tr5 wrote

The human race exists because of programmed morality. My ENTIRE life, not a single member of my family, going back to my grandparents on both sides ever spent a single day in church. I don't need a god to tell me how to behave. I've got it covered. Religion came about to explain the things we couldn't explain ourselves, then it became a threat, used entirely to control.

Humans wrote these texts that say for us to be kind and good, because that's how normally functioning humans work on a regular day to day basis, by default. They were not given to us.

Religion should not govern in the 21st century. Full stop.

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1e2rq8 wrote

I agree, Religion should not be used to govern masses. To me religion is a means for people to express their faith in a deeper meaning to life. Of course meaning to life is different for everyone and theres no real tangible definition. Humans were born with the gift of imagination for a reason.

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FarmhouseFan t1_j1e40y6 wrote

Yeah, then the ones imagining a world that they think should be the last word on civilization stop at nothing to obtain power, all because of religion. Go ahead and keep telling yourself romantic fairy tales about religion. The hard truth is it deepens divides more than brings us together. We keep ourselves in echo chambers because our book seems better than others. It's just tribalism. It was necessary in our formative years but it's time to let the scientific and trial and error phase of humanity begin. Our potential as a species is incredible, perhaps limitless. The earth, if we truly loved and nurtured it, can easily sustain us until the sun turns in to a red giant and engulfs the planet in roughly 5 billion years. Maybe jesus or whoever will save us though, right?

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1e4ql0 wrote

And that’s your perspective. I can understand why you feel like that and I felt like that a lot and still sometimes do. You dont have to see my perspective. I hope as generations pass we can learn to have more open discussions on this topic without all the hostility.

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FarmhouseFan t1_j1e8d48 wrote

Sorry if I'm coming off as hostile, its hard for me to try and have philosophical discussions about whether or not intelligent design is real when we've literally seen the cosmic microwave background of the observable universe while at the same time we've got religion taking away rights from women, because of the interpretation of a book. Is there any discussion to be had, really?

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1e9wie wrote

Funny thing is im an engineer. Im interested in so many scientific phenomena and technological innovation is a very big interest of mine. We cant disregard our history. All the books you seem to despise have an immense amount of lessons that we really shouldnt ignore. If we stop tunnel visioning on all the negatives addressed in them and maybe objectively look at what has been passed down to us for hundreds and thousands of years, maybe we can then find the breakthrough in civilization. Man shit I wanna know if were alone or not too.

Edit: probably all of history not just the religious books

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FarmhouseFan t1_j1ebd8q wrote

I dont despise the books, I despise the people who use the books while they're in charge to dictate life based on what they think of the stories contained within.

We aren't tunnel visioning. This garbage behavior is being shoved in our faces constantly.

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BandOfButtons t1_j1euahe wrote

At the risk of coming off like an Edgy Atheist Redditor (sorry in advance) - how do you conflate the idea that Islam is about being kind, good and supportive of co-existence, when Islam is the world religion that is most against co-existence? Ex-Muslims, religious minorities, the LGBT+ community, even just women co-existing with men.

In one of your other comments you said that you're practicing your religion more seriously since you moved to a western country. I'm happy that you're able to do so. But I doubt any same-sex couple (among many, many other marginalised groups) moving to a Muslim country would be able to say the equivalent. So many people have to flee Muslim countries in order to live their lives safely and without persecution, but I've never heard of anyone fleeing to one from the west for the same reason.

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1fbo1b wrote

There are a lot of muslim countries where societies of different faiths co-exist and those people are usually just fine with how things are. Im not saying these societies or countries are perfect. Im sure people there go through bouts of shitty things. Women as well have to deal with things men dont have to deal with. So there are issues that you bring up. Im not denyng that. However, its definitely not to the point where co-existing is not possible or favorable. People of different minorities and their quality of life depends on the ideologies of the leaders. Thats why Im not with religion being the basis for government. Either way the arabic world is westernizing at a very fast pace coupled with social media and with that the slow erosion of the issues you mentioned. When it comes to the LGBT+ matter its different from faith and honestly I dont know a right answer. Of course the way theyre treated is horrible. Its not easy for someone in my position to discuss this specific thing cuz I dont really have it all figured out. Theres the side of my faith that expresses explicitly the catastrophe that fell upon followers of this path. I don’t know what its like to be in their shoes so i wouldnt even call it following a path. All I know is that the modern solution is not simple or known but that some tolerance should be given.

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percussaresurgo t1_j1e5i47 wrote

I can see you haven’t actually read the Qaran. It’s not accepting of differences, and it does mandate imposing Islam on everyone. That’s why Sharia exists, which is a system of Islamic law which everyone has to abide by, and it has special punishments for non-believers which they call “infidels.”

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1e6l5g wrote

The Quran is very much accepting of differences. Proof of that is any arabic country on the african continent.

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percussaresurgo t1_j1ebrug wrote

The text speaks for itself:

• Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. (4:56)

• Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah. (9:29)

• Lo! those who disbelieve and deal wrong, Allah will never forgive them, neither will He guide them unto a road, Except the road of hell, wherein they will abide for ever. And that is ever easy for Allah. (4:168-9)

• And the dwellers of the Fire cry out unto the dwellers of the Garden: Pour on us some water or some wherewith Allah hath provided you. They say: Lo! Allah hath forbidden both to disbelievers (in His guidance). (7:50)

• As for him whom He sendeth astray, for them thou wilt find no protecting friends beside Him, and We shall assemble them on the Day of Resurrection on their faces, blind, dumb and deaf; their habitation will be hell; whenever it abateth, We increase the flame for them. That is their reward because they disbelieved Our revelations. (17:97-98)

• Unto Him belongeth whosoever is in the heavens and the earth. All are obedient unto Him. (30:26)

• Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place! (18:29)

• Whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter. (3:85)

• Allah loveth not the disbelievers. (3:32)

• He loveth not the disbelievers. (30:45)

• Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. (3:28)

• They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve ... choose not friends from them. (4:89)

• Choose not disbelievers for (your) friends in place of believers. Would ye give Allah a clear warrant against you? (4:144)

• Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. ... He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. (5:51)

• Do ye give them friendship when they disbelieve? (60:1)

• The disbelievers are an open enemy to you. (4:101)

• Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah. (9:29)

• Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you. (9:123)

• If they ... assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief. ... Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them (9:12-14)

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1ecfyt wrote

I cant really speak on this as I have never read the Quran in english nor do I know where to get an accepted translated version.

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percussaresurgo t1_j1eidpl wrote

That's why I said above "I can see you haven’t actually read the Qaran."

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taybay462 t1_j1fj40y wrote

It's not the book itself, it's the ability people have to twist whatever sacred words into whatever result they want, and if they're respected in the religion people will go along with it. People using other people's earnest religious belief to get them to do or go along with horrible things is a tale as old as time

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1fkggo wrote

Yes this is absolutely the issue. This doesnt mean that are no or there havent been any evil aethiests in power Everything has pros and cons. Certainly everything controversial is politicized. I couldnt think of something more controversial than religion.

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KrazyDrayz t1_j1frfb5 wrote

>This doesnt mean that are no or there havent been any evil aethiests in power

Strawman. No one said that.

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1fu6sp wrote

What does strawman mean lol

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KrazyDrayz t1_j1fucrn wrote

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

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WillUmbrellaYou t1_j1fumam wrote

Good to know. I probably did do this

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taybay462 t1_j1g46gs wrote

Lol fair. I absolutely do not believe there's no bad atheist leaders (although there aren't many admitted atheist leaders). It's just, with them you don't have to specifically worry about them forcing their religious beliefs on their constituents. It's like how white privilege doesn't mean you don't struggle, you just don't have that particular hurdle

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