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Why does the driving licence have a gender on it all?

It seems completely pointless. Do people who live in New York need to prove their gender for something?

Maybe to hlp identify people when they're running from police

I would think it's for when/if that individual is being taken to jail, searched, or taken to prison they can be dealt with by the appropriate gender. Example being I would not liked to be searched in any form by the opposite sex than myself. Not would I like to go to a prison with the opposite sex.

Their name, address, and photo isn't enough?

Officer 1: "Oh, this person has the same name and address, and the photo looks like them. But they said they're male and the licence says female".

Officer 2: "We obviously have the wrong person. I guess the criminal got away."

There are plenty of places where the driving licence does not include their gender and the police have no more difficulties proving it's them than place who include it.

Plus, anybody can now just get an "X" instead of a gender, so how is that different?

In the UK you get asked for these details when you're being processed. If you identify as another gender you're asked which gender of officer you'd rather perform the search.

If you get sent to prison then your barrister petitions the judge to send you to a prison for that gender and you go through that process. I would hope that if I ever got arrested in the US (unlikely) that I'd be offered the same as I would be offered in the UK. Rather than just using details off a license.

A license is just proof of ID, not of gender. A way to prove that your details are yours. It seems ridiculous that you have to prove your gender

Valid points. But I will add this, maybe it's so the officer at the scene is able to identify quickly if a different gendered officer is required or even how to refer to them.

But honestly, I have no idea. I'm just trying to think of reasons on why it was put on them in the first place.

The article uses the term gender but the license says sex. Do people consider these terms as indistinguishable in this context?

I assumed all states had the same requirements since the four states I've lived all did. However, when I saw no height or hair color listed I went digging around. Boy it's random what states don't require either weight, hair color, or both.

Hmmm . . . The name says Morgan Motorist, the signature says Morgan Motorist, but the curved security feature on the right side of the license says Michelle Motorist.

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Gender and sex are not interchangeable!

Gender can be whatever tf, but sex is what you're born as and that never changes ever

In case of severe accident and dealing with a mangled body and they have to mark what the victims gender on their paperwork

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Sex can change and is not as binary as many of us were taught. Even if you mean sex as in chromosomal sex, in which case there are many variations and like many people living with no symptoms of variations.

https://www.uow.edu.au/media/2021/anatomy-texts-should-show-sex-as-a-spectrum-to-include-intersex-people.php#:~:text=The%20spectrum%20of%20sex%20variation,the%20male%20and%20female%20binaries.

I think part of it is also for emergency services. Might be a bit outdated now, but if a bad wreck happens they can use your license for identification to notify family and also have some basic health info. This is why I think they ask for sex, not gender, on the card

Could just be one of those bureaucratic snowball effects too. “You must have a valid state drivers license to qualify for <some other document/service>. That document requires a sex declaration, that declaration must match another verified document, like your license, so now we just made it standard on all identification paperwork” or some other bean counting nonsense

well see ID's are used to identify people

Yes

edit: why the downvotes, that's just a factual answer about the legal context?

Oh no, so confusing. Think of the children...... we may have to talk to them or even worse, teach them something new.

Found the government agent

yes, so when the officer is tasering them and planting drugs on them they know their preferred pronoun.

(how did you know I'm American...is it the poor grammar and spelling?)

Your sex is not your gender.

Yeah I was referencing chromosomes for sex there, and yeah definitely a chart it's not scientifically binary at all

It still seems to be what you're born with, it's just that there's plenty of options for how you're born

Would it be a crime to reidentify as a sex later if it suited your needs?

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Right but what are you going to do if the gender doesn't match with what is written in the id? Nothing really. In practice the picture is enough.

Edit: People down voting me while I'm right... as trans person you would think i know what happens when your id doesn't match your sex.

It's kind of depends what your using it for. No one is going to do a chromosome test just to see if your id matches. And really anything outside of that is changeable. Surgery hormones ect. It says sex on the ID. But unless you want to do those test each time you check the ID we use it as gender. And even if you do those test. You wouldn't be the first person who lived there whole life as one gender but turned out to have the opposite xx or xy chromosomes without knowing. Its rare but it does happen

It's mostly a leftover from when as a society we didn't label the divide between gender and sex i think. It would make more sense for the id to say gender. That's the way it's used in practice

i'm sure there are some male/female siblings out there that could pass for eachother with a wig or something or short hair, twins and shit. I had a ex who said her dad would dress up as his grandma to take money out the bank, people do all types of crazy shit.

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seen somebody else say something about IDing people in car crashes bodies mangled

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gender ambiguous people taken to jail need to be put in the correct jail area, yk they separate by sex n all that

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I'm sure people have given this some thought and have that on the ID for a reason

But they're not?? A person's gender identity is not their biological sex. There is an important medical distinction and should be a deliberate legal distinction as well.

Too bad, gonna change my legal sex to X to match my gender and no one can stop me.

I mean you do you, not really my problem; just stating the facts and adjacent shoulds.

Yeah but that doesn't happen with the ID. Look im trans and from the Netherlands. I have the v for vrouw (female) in my passport but that doesn't match my sex. Yet i can travel over the world (some countries were being trans is outlawed of course excepted) but they won't try to match my id to my genitals. Let alone chromosomes.

Of course you could think of the edge case of the car crash. But it has to be an incredibly precise type of crash where all my other indentifing info is lost except my sex and my id... i don't think that is really a good reason.

As for prisons. My personal opinion is that in general we should allow for self identification. How ever when someone is a risk or for other reasons wouldn't be a good fit other measures can be taken. As the exception. And again they don't use id to determine sex here.

For your final point. i wonder if it is given good thought to be fair. Identification is a rather old system and like many old systems you get customs that just don't get questioned over time. Most reasons I've heard are after thoughts.

Does this mean I can use both the mens and the ladies bathrooms now?

I wonder what insurance rates X would get?

Not a single “X gon give it to ya” comment. How soon we all forget.

In Canada the government gives female apprentices extra money for tools. At which point every single apprentice in my province identified as female. This nonsense can cut both ways. Sometimes funny.

If I lived in New York I’d go with X. Then I can go nuts and act offended if somebody assumes my gender. If this is the new game. Let the games begin.

Do they have women-only jobs in the trades yet? Corporate has women's internships now.

Oh! Even better. If you identify as a woman they will, in some cases, pay for all of ur schooling. A cock and balls would be disqualifying… unless there were some way to say I’m a woman even tho I’m not…. 😂😂😂 Had I not gotten into my first choice. My second choice had this option. In which case, “I want you all to call me Loretta”!

I agree. Very useless if you can just change it to "X" anyway. May as well just remove the data point.

Wow the world has gone mad

An interesting point would be to re-assess whether we need gender/sex on IDs at all.

What for? It is not that helpful for identification: that's what the photo is for.

Hahaha. Good that those men😂 women found an avenue to skirt around discrimination.

This is uplifting news? But how?

How is this uplifting exactly? Complete and utter madness.

Is this a serious question? If the police are looking for a 33 year old woman? Is the gender of the person you are questioning not important?

The murder suspect is a 5'9" X with brown hair

Yeah I think they mean "sex" Cops don't really care how you "identify"

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Any EMT’s want to chime in here? Could a persons sex change the type of care they get?

personally i wouldn't want a cop to look on my license and have the knowledge i'm non binary. I hope more cis people use this, because why do we even need gender markers on licenses lmao

I was filling fucking employment insurance and it asked me ..why? Lol

Fight the power!

Okay, so here’s my question. Somebody please give me a logical solution going forward on this issue. I work in a laboratory of a hospital. If a patient comes into the ER unconscious, they are stabilized and blood is drawn and given to the lab for analysis. Reference ranges for some important analytes are slightly different for males and females (e.g hemoglobin)

Maybe in a clinical context this doesn’t affect patient treatment so much, but I’m curious if there this is a problem or how the hospital deals with this. This also includes transgender people.

I have nothing against people choosing which gender they identify as, but medically there are biologically differences in hormones. Maybe this is a non-issue, but would love to hear from an ER tech/nurse/doc on how this is handled.

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X = Y / 2 * Pi

And you have a picture, how would the gender help you more than having a picture of their face?

First thing that popped in my head with that headline.

A binary the gender marker doesn’t tell you what someone’s hormone levels are - cis or trans.

Many trans people have undergone HRT but not changed their license. Many cis people have hormone levels that naturally fall outside of the “normal range” for their group. The gender marker on a license is irrelevant when it comes to lifesaving medical care.

I would imagine that it might be useful for medical purposes, like having whether or not you're a donor on the license.

But I also imagine a medical bracelet is more useful than a license especially if someone loses theirs or doesn't take it with them.

There are a lot of things on a license that are unnecessary like weight and height with renewal periods in my state being 8 years and they just use the same photo, I'm sorry I don't quite weigh the same as I did in 2016 as I do now so why have that on there.

The kinds of information governments require for different identifications are sometimes mind boggling.

As a medical professional it is very important.

Yes. Sex is very relevant to everything EMS does.

Will it make or break a patients outcome? Mostly no.

But it's fucking ridiculous that I would be forced to guess what type of organs and hormones a person would latently have because of this nonsense.

Signs and symptoms for various ailments differ from male to female.

Edit: apparently people think sex isn't important for working up a differential on a medical patient.

What a utterly stupid thing to even have on the card. Just do away with gender if you want to put a mystery box as a option.

It does me no good as a first responder and as a healthcare worker.

ID is specifically designed to help identify who and what a person is. This flies in the face of that purpose and negates its ability to be useful. People really are just this stupid.

Edit: women have different organs, hormones, vital sign normals, different lab values, pregnancy in general and the various reproductive conditions that can be missed and be deadly. I can go on and on as to why it's important for officials to know the xx or xy status of a person strictly for medical and legal reasons.

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Honestly imagine taking this license somewhere like Texas or Alaska. It's like wearing a kick me sign in grade school except the bullies have guns and can't be prosecuted, fired, questioned or investigated

Gender should not be on a license. Only sex should be

I'm going to check the license and when I give report I am going to call in your age and gender if it's not already obvious to me.

Idk why that's hard to understand.

Will me not being sure of your bits keep me from providing standard of care? No.

But it's fucking ridiculous to have the system acknowledge such a thing that goes AGAINST what identification is intended for. Doctors absolutely will need to know your sex for the best standard of care.

Sorry it triggers you.

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No it means you can have ectopic pregnancy, you can menstruate potentially altering your RBC count. Women have higher instance of thyroid storm, myxedema coma. Ovarian cysts, etc. Etc. Etc. I could go on and on.

Women physiologically present differently than men when considering signs and symptoms from heart attacks to dissecting aortic aneurysms.

Women in general are very different from men and you not understanding that is fine but take a step back and ponder over the fact that you might not know what you are talking about.

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Rather than wonder whether a solution exists to maintain that standard of care WHILE respecting various gender expressions, you call this all "nonsense" and "ridiculous"

Very telling

My guess: you care more about how this affects YOU and YOUR potential liability than you do any patient outcomes. The rest is a rationalization, and you've probably internalized it to the point that this comment will enrage you and you'll lean in with defending yourself and your character... Because again, this is all about you

ETA: You literally posted another comment all about how it "does me no good as a first responder," so, looks like I was right.

If you're thinking to reply by citing examples of how it could cause medical complications, then let's circle back to the start: How do address this without throwing this out entirely? If you won't entertain the idea, then you're not about patient outcomes, you're just about resisting change.

That makes me wonder why we have it on the license at all? Surely there's a reason.

If it's so a medic can identify the correct medicine to give you based on your sex while you are unconscious/dying, that would be pretty important to have that correct on your license.

No I mean like men and women are different like medically and surgery and hormones will not change a lot of the differences especially in terms of signs and symptoms

Like sure you have some points. But physiologically you are your original gender and a lot of your physiology will not change with your changed gender assignment.

Signs and symptoms and various disease processes will still apply according to your xy or xx chromosomes. Women and men are just different in certain ways that affect how we treat patients.

Edit: if the ID were to be more of use they would indicate origin gender and the new one. Would give us an idea if you menstruate, or what hormones are affecting your body.

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I just do not like being called a bad provider like some have done on this thread just because I think that knowing the birth gender of my patient is important.

Like to sugges your birth organs and hormones have nothing to do with patient care is ludicrous to suggest.

I can't tell you how important it is to arriving to a 911 call and helping someone figure out if their medical complaint is potentially fatal or not. Signs and symptoms are so different from men to women.

I identify as a “J” and it’s not an option I’m offended

Thank goodness it is just a small negligible percentage of people who don’t understand why this matters in the EMS world and make a big deal out it. Thanks for your service

The person is asked what biological sex they were at birth and what, if any, meds they take. It will come up then.

Edit: Downvotes for what actually happens in UK medical care? Okaaaaay.

You don't choose your gender.

Height is actually used for identification. I saw the training for people that check IDs and the first thing they were told to do is to estimate the height before looking at the ID, then check that. It’s something hard to fake.

But yes, everything else should either have a purpose or go.

Why? (Serious question)

A side note. Is it not perfectly OK to worry about ones liability? I would not want to cause me or my employer damages just by doing my job. Why would that ever be an issue?

> If a patient comes into the ER unconscious,

Then it's a potential ballache. But if they have ID then their doctor can be phoned and details confirmed. Or a family member contacted etc.

I don't think they use your license for that. Also it is just not that simple. I'm trans so i use hormones. This means a lot of processes in my body run as if i was a woman. Not everything of course, but it certainly isn't black and white. So if you did follow my id and i wasn't able to change it then they may make mistakes the other direction in. But again, i don't believe they use your id for that.

I get that this is an achievement for the individuals affected by it but why do they even bother asking? It's not like they validate or do something with the information, nor can I think of a reason they should anyway

men naturally have far higher levels of testosterone than women..."natural" variation within the sexes is not comparable to the high-dose cross sex hormones that transsexuals take.

We record sex, not gender on a driving license. Even GRC trans people still have their bio sex recorded, not their gender identity.

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Feel free to read the rest of the the thread for the 'why'.

Your being nb has no bearing on medical reality.

Simple solution: We no longer put a letter there. Instead we put a picture of their genitals on the back. Then everyone can decide for themselves.

"Eyes: BRO"

not entirely gender neutral unfortunately

Because men and women are biologically different, and a significant amount of medical things that work for one don't work for the other and can even be fatal.

OK, but would a doctor/ER decide based on an ID? Which in some cases would list the gender, in some cases the biological sex?

If medical reasons matter, then allergies should be there before biological sex, and in any case the medical data should not be there to be inspected by anybody that handles ID.

Of all things, biological sex seems something that a doctor can ask or (if the patient cannot respond) verify by other means.

From what I know, they don't even trust your blood type indication and test you anyway (and provide you with universal donor blood in the meanwhile).

In an emergency situation, with an unconscious patient who is close to death, what do you think is easier; confirming by I.D. or getting permission to go through private medical records, then sorting through them on a computer until you find the sex of the patient?

Irrelevant news.

And a bunch of people got real angry for no reason

In an emergency situation close to death? You look at the person and you take the best educated guess of whether they are biologically male or female. Do you think they look at their driving license?

Gender and biological sex are not the same thing

Do the same thing you'd do if there was no id on them.

These aren't difficult questions.

We? Lol ok

Language is muddy. There no getting around that. You have to understand what concepts are being referred to and not get lost in semantics.

Why list race? Lots of people don't fall neatly into race boxes.

Why should either?

Why is gender even on a driving license? Shouldn't it just be sex?

There's many, many emergency responders in this thread who are all saying they do, and a quick Google search will show you that they do if they need to.

If you have a very butch or very effeminate person and you can't tell, do you think taking a guess is appropriate?

Guessing in an emergency situation gets people killed.

We as in human beings. Nice try though

I used to work at an ER and one time a chick came in with a stomach ache. They didn't have any identification. We even told them we would be running a pregnancy test just in case (extremely common thing to do). One of the nurses was helping them put on the gown and got a glimpse of a not so female body so yeah....doc had to change a few things.

Apparently you're wrong because the humans in NY record gender

The sex, not the gender. But yeah you have a good point

Medical reasons - for paramedics etc.

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Seems like a weak argument

Might be more helpful to list allergies

Who the fuck makes these decisions

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Actually yeah, there are many more important things to list for medical like allergies, medications, disabilities, etc.

I have changed my mind, sex and gender have no business being on government cards

They're the same thing, it doesn't matter which word you use

Sex refers to a set of biological attributes in humans and animals. It is primarily associated with physical and physiological features including chromosomes, gene expression, hormone levels and function, and reproductive/sexual anatomy. Sex is usually categorized as female or male but there is variation in the biological attributes that comprise sex and how those attributes are expressed.

Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender diverse people. It influences how people perceive themselves and each other, how they act and interact, and the distribution of power and resources in society. Gender is usually conceptualized as a binary (girl/woman and boy/man) yet there is considerable diversity in how individuals and groups understand, experience, and express it.

Imo gender should not exist, because gender roles and classification are toxic imo but it does have a separate definition

takes one to know one 💖

nah, my license has the gender i present as. it's pretty easy to switch it here lol

so my testosterone levels are in the 700s because I've been taking it for years. I have friends who are on estrogen who take testosterone blockers and have the exact estrogen levels and testosterone I would've before I transitioned, in fact in some cases higher estrogen levels than mine were.

I don't know if I totally understood your message but the point of the hormones is to match what they would naturally be. they use the same medication to treat early menopause and PCOS!

happy to keep chatting in dms if you're curious, but otherwise I'm going to delete everything as I've started getting harassment comments. you're right in that they have no idea if you're a good provider based on the teaspoon of info here, that's ridiculous and obscene. I'm sorry people are saying things like that.

I don't see it as uplifting either. More so confusing news as others in the health field have stated.

As a male, what does this mean for my insurance rates if I switch?

I don't think paramedics are trained to check for a driver's license before helping somebody.

I'm assuming they use their eyes and look.

So do we need 2 different categories for licenses, gender and sex?

Probably for visual identification right? But I agree, race is obviously a bad solution. What if we instead assigned everyone a hexadecimal color code like in MS Paint? That would be much more effective.

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Provide a lower standard of care, because you don't have all the information?

You never have all the info. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Because the conversation isn't about sex. It's about gender.

Just don't list it at all. It's a problematic concept to begin with

Or neither

That's an option, I'm just seeing if we can improve upon the original reason it was put there. If it's so the Silver Alert system works, then that's pretty important, we can just decouple it from Race.

The original reason is that we used to use very rudimentary concepts to differentiate people.

medical reality acknowledges non binary people and im not even non binary so lol

Agreed. Hex color codes would be a modern solution.

True height would be one that's hard to change too much over the years once you stop growing.

For what? There's a photo of the person right there. Just look.

Well when licenses were invented they probably couldn't just send a quick pic of the person. So color id was necessary. If that was the reason behind it, then we could eliminate any need to list race or color because everybody has cell phones now.

Exactly

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