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Lost-Pineapple9791 t1_irwnug0 wrote

Reply to comment by NotACapedCrusader1 in Hundreds of Dogs Saved From Nevada Breeding Farm in Huge Police Operation by NotACapedCrusader1

Absolutely scum of the earth and I just wish there were stricter laws

It’s one of the few non-political things, like both republicans and democrats voters would support harsh penalties against animals

It’s def a mental disorder to be so cruel and evil with lack of empathy for a living breathing creature. I can’t imagine the shock and horror I would feel if I walked j to a warehouse with 300 dogs crammed into small cages…and these people do it every day their whole life 🤦‍♂️ 😢

They push metal rods down chihuahuas throats as well to break the bone so they can’t bark…absolutely crazy…(the rescuer we got our dog from the lady had two that went tvrotuh this…so F off anyone trying to say it’s not true when I’ve had them in my lap)

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[deleted] t1_irx7kbh wrote

[deleted]

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Koda_20 t1_irxec40 wrote

I think you should look into that one again from a different source.

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gottam t1_irwuqan wrote

>It’s def a mental disorder to be so cruel and evil with lack of empathy for a living breathing creature.

glad to see another vegan in here.

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PickanickBasket t1_irxbukb wrote

You can be empathetic and compassionate towards animals and not be vegan.

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Brilliancebeam t1_irxe7g8 wrote

How?

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PickanickBasket t1_irxhwg8 wrote

Treating the animals raised with kindness and compassion, and only ever taking what you need. Being sure to use the whole animal. Making sure farming practices are wholesome and sustainable.

I am not a meat eater but I don't see this as a black and white, vegan or not vegan, situation.

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Brilliancebeam t1_iryg606 wrote

The situation you described doesn't exist for most farm animals in industrialized countries. They essentially live like the dogs in this article.

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Bornchillbrah t1_irxdgou wrote

I'm sorry but no, you really cannot. There are exactly zero viable reasons to not go vegan nowadays. If you prefer the taste of animal products, then you support animal cruelty.

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Koda_20 t1_irxevqn wrote

I'm sorry but no, that's not true.

Is it animal cruelty to raise a baby cow on an open range farm and give it an enjoyable life and then painlessly slaughter it later in life? Is it wrong to pick up a deer that just got hit by a car and make use of the meat?

Many say no. Me included.

Everything dies, not everything has to suffer unnecessarily. I purchase ethically sourced meat. I go the extra mile and personally verify the source to the best of my ability. I care a lot about these animals and support any action that leads to better lives for these loving creatures.

I won't go vegan again, for health reasons mostly but also because supporting ethically sourced meat in my opinion is even better than leaving the market entirely. It hurts those factory farmers more because those competitors get bigger and cheaper and displace them over time.

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Bornchillbrah t1_irxhue9 wrote

There's still a lot of mental gymnastics at play here. Sure, some of the "my uncle's ethical farm" treat the animals with respect and give them plenty of free roam. However, a majority of them still ship the animals to the same slaughter houses that factory farms do, where they suffer the same painful, inefficient deaths. The living conditions there are horrid, the workers use cattle prods or bolt guns which don't work 100% of the time. Gas is often used causing them to writhe in agony for minutes before finally dying. Cows often have their throats slit to bleed out while still alive. I could go on, but feel free to do a quick search of how slaughter houses operate, or simply watch the documentary: Dominion.

Even if you can 100% guarantee the food you get has been painlessly slaughtered, do you think that animal wanted to be killed? Can you think of any actual reason to consume animal products besides personal taste preference?

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Koda_20 t1_irxnpjl wrote

I can do all the mental gymnastics I want when you use absolute statements like that. Only need to think of a single instance. Whether or not the animal wanted to die is irrelavent, of course it didn't, but overall it had a net positive existence in the world I reckon. If it were up to me I'd rather be born and raised well and then killed later in life than not exist at all, so I see no cruelty in that.

Sure, the actual killing of the animal is a bit unethical, but from my perspective eating ethically sourced meat is no problem.

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Bornchillbrah t1_irxpmrf wrote

Ah so is it cool if an ethical human farmer were to shoot you in the face real quick, process you and sell you to some cannibals then? They gave you a pretty good life before that so it's all good right?

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Koda_20 t1_irxqgd6 wrote

If that is the price to pay for being brought into the world and protected, better than nothing. Sure.

Though I wouldn't say it would be okay for the farmer to shoot me without my consent. This is where adult humans differ from animals, they can't do that mental math and decide for themselves so I decide for them as their caretaker (if I'm the ethical farmer who wants to breed a baby cow for future slaughter).

The best we can do when making a choice for someone that can't make it for themselves, is consider what we would want if it were up to us.

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CreedAngelus t1_irycxy1 wrote

Just use my argument. I've yet to see anyone counter it because it's true.

Veganism is anti poor.

People who advocate for "veganism at all costs" forget that third world nations exist.

When your country is surrounded by water and filled with forests, you don't have enough fields to feed everyone with plant matter.

And you don't have the economy to import a pure plant matter diet for everyone.

You fish, and you breed chickens and pigs because they're low maintenance and eat scraps for minimum waste.

Plus meat is denser in energy than plants. You need to buy more plant matter to get the same level of nutrition.

This is important because if your average daily wage is 1/4 of the US minimum wage, you can't afford to buy more food. You want the most nutrition for the least amount of food.

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PugPockets t1_irz7xwg wrote

Your argument sucks because it’s not even what’s being talked about here, which is meat consumption in industrialized countries that subsist on factory farms. There are absolutely vegan assholes who will shame folks with legitimately no other options for not being vegan, and most of us really hate them because they make us look like ignorant dicks. The majority of people in industrialized countries not living in food deserts have options.

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CreedAngelus t1_irzwcjw wrote

The original statement the guy made was that there was no excuse to not be vegan. My argument breaks it.

Now unless someone countered my argument the issue becomes...

If we're "allowed" to eat animals because we're poor, who made vegans the authority to tell people with more than us what they should eat? This "permission" to eat meat comes off as a pity party for people without food.

It comes off as "look at them. They're so backwards they have to eat animals while we don't. I feel bad for them."

That is the undertone delivered. What happened to being treated equally?

We work so we can afford choice. Ease quality of life. Are we supposed to lose freedom of one aspect of our lives upon being capable of affording more than basic needs? Do we not deserve comfort for successfully pulling ourselves up?

And again, if we were not denied that in acknowledgement of our struggles, but people from first world nations are, is that not a pity party? A marker displaying the difference between them and us?

So when will we be viewed as equal?

Finally, social dynamics aside...

if people can justify our consumption of meat because we're poor then it is admission that animals cannot be prioritized compared to us. Because in a pinch, we are human and they are not.

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PugPockets t1_is03agk wrote

I think (?) I see where you’re trying to go, but no. It’s about privilege, not pity, and equity, not equality. In my value system, I try to minimize the amount of harm I cause, and try to mitigate harm where I encounter it - that is what makes moral sense to me. It is impossible to live in our world and not cause harm, and I am nowhere near perfect, nor even cutting out everything in my life I could to get closer. To me, a non-negotiable is veganism, because it’s wholly possible. We do not gain “freedom” by causing harm, which is what mass-scale animal agriculture is, full stop. It is not necessary for us to survive, and no, I don’t believe anyone is entitled to the lives and autonomy of other sentient beings under the guise of “comfort”. The abject torture that is all most animals in feedlots and factories will ever know is not okay, and not excusable.

To your last point, we are animals, and have a survival instinct. I will not judge anyone doing what they can to keep themselves and their family alive, because it would be a nonsensical expectation. I think I’m maybe in the middle ground of vegans in that I view things from a harm reduction lens and view things on a spectrum - so with my current privileges I would never subsistence hunt or buy eggs from my neighbor, but these things do cause less overall pain and suffering than buying a Big Mac and do think there’s a moral difference between those and engaging in the standard American diet when you have and are aware of the many other options.

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CreedAngelus t1_is06zj1 wrote

There is a fundamental incompatibility betwen the idea of preventing harm to sentient beings when given the option, and the fact that animals that are not our own species see no harm in hunting when other options exist.

Pigs are omnivores and will eat an unconscious human given the chance. And yes it has happened. Apes are largely herbivorous but do not shy away from eating grubs and lice off of each other. Hedgehogs will eat their young when threatened because in their minds, if the threat will kill their kids anyway, better they utilize the energy than a predator. Parasitic birds are technically capable of raising their own young but opt not to even at the expense of the young of other birds. Dolphins will bully puffer fish for their toxins in order to get high. They do not need to do this but they do. Orcas will body boats and animals alike and risk self harm because they think it is fun and challenging. Cats will kill for sport.

These are intelligent animals seeking comfort at the expense of other species. Because it is natural to prioritize one's own species over another, similar to how it is natural to prioritize one's family over another.

The counterpoint to this should be that as humans we are more advanced than animals and do not have to act like them. But then if we acknowledge that there is a difference, well... That difference is what allows us in the third world to eat them without guilt.

Thing is, if we grew up eating a mix of meat and vegetables to survive, we already value ourselves more than animals. Even if someone here does get rich, it is unrealistic to expect a sudden development of empathy for what we see as food.

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PugPockets t1_is1ghgx wrote

I’m not seeing a point here. You are welcome to do mental gymnastics however you want, but this isn’t a philosophical exercise, it’s just a day to day choice. It’s wild to me how complicated people will make their arguments rather than just saying, “I know there is mass-scale suffering that animals are experiencing, I know I could make different choices, and I don’t want to because I value my [convenience, tradition, comfort, taste buds, etc] above this.”

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CreedAngelus t1_is1hvgt wrote

It's hardly gymnastics at all.

The point is I see animals as food because of the fact they sustained me when plants alone would not suffice.

Can't see them as equals just because I get out of the country and move to a better life because that would necessitate feeling guilt that I contributed to the killing of thousands of equals in order to have a half decent quality of life.

I mean obviously we wouldn't kill thousands of people to make our one life better. But you acknowledge that people can eat animals to survive and you wouldn't judge them.

Thus their death is secondary to my comfort. Just as to animals, the suffering of other species they actively choose to make suffer is secondary to their comfort. The only difference is that I have the awareness to choose not to have the chicken in my backyard suffer in the moments before it ends up on my plate.

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PugPockets t1_is1n4w5 wrote

Context is important, for sure, and you have a life experience that is different from my own. I think what comes in here is a fundamental disconnect between the realities of mass scale animal agriculture and subsistence farming or hunting. Most vegans grew up thinking of animals as food, and cultural differences and traditions are really important to acknowledge and respect. And yet, again, if and when we have the privilege to be able to choose, we have the ability to choose something different. People will do a lot of things to avoid feeling guilt, and even though I don’t believe you would need to feel guilt for eating animals to survive, actively avoiding engaging with the reality of a situation to avoid uncomfortable feelings is Big Ag’s sweet spot. They will do pretty much anything to get people to avoid feeling guilty. Like I said, I cannot pretend my choices cause no harm (I drive a car, have an Amazon prime membership, etc). I know that in those instances I am prioritizing my convenience over the greater good. I feel guilt about that. Veganism is just a no-brainer for me, because the violence is on such a giant scale and I have the ability to opt out as much as I can. You get to make whatever choices make sense for you.

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CreedAngelus t1_iryav6a wrote

Meat is 5x more protein dense than plant matter.

This is important in third world countries like mine because going vegan means you need to buy more food to get the same sustenance.

Veganism isn't taken seriously here because we do not have the luxury of choice. It is seen as anti poor empathy for animals when we should be prioritizing each other.

We do not have enough fields to feed the country. We have forests and cutting them down for fields is ill-advised. We cannot depend on imports because again... Third world economy.

What we have in abundance are fish, being an island nation, and pork and chicken because they eat anything we can't and they fatten easy.

For context, I'm earning 5.5 USD per hour and that is twice the average daily wage. People around me consider me fortunate with that salary. I can't afford veganism. How can people with less than I?

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YCTech t1_irxnlng wrote

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. God gave us permission to eat meat a long time ago. Jesus himself ate fish. I will follow after no human being except Jesus Christ, the one responsible for where my soul goes for eternity.

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Bornchillbrah t1_irxp5fk wrote

Well I gotta say.. That's the first time I've seen religion used as an excuse to rape, torture and slaughter animals! It's ok as long as Jesus says so right?

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El_Tigre t1_irxpvu2 wrote

Who the fuck is justifying the rape of animals? If we’re speaking broadly it’s always been used as an excuse to do those things if we include people in the equation….but Jesus fucking Christ.

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Bornchillbrah t1_irxs94e wrote

How do you think you get cows milk? Cows only produce it when they're pregnant. Most dairy farms continually forcefully inseminate them to keep them pregnant to keep producing milk until they're physically unable to anymore..

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El_Tigre t1_irycq14 wrote

Why word it that way? They artificially inseminate the cows, it’s not rape. They do it for about 4 years, then they’re sent to slaughter.

Forcefully inseminate….

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Bornchillbrah t1_is0iwqe wrote

https://youtu.be/UcN7SGGoCNI

I challenge you to make it through this 5 min video then about it. Enjoy!

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El_Tigre t1_is0wc62 wrote

Okay, Now what? I don’t find any of that as reprehensible as you do. It’s how it works. My family have been dairy farmers for generations. They operate in co-ops up in Wisconsin. Milk, cheese, meat, it’s food. These animals shouldn’t be mistreated, and at the same time phrasing routine processes in dairy production in that way comes off as manipulative.

You feel how you feel about it. I’m not going to invalidate those feelings. We have to accept at some point some people have made the decision to continue consuming animal products, despite knowing how the “sausage is made” so to speak. Death is part of it. Artificial insemination is part of it. You’ve made your choice, and are sticking to your principles, please respect other’s choices to do so.

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Bornchillbrah t1_is0yfdb wrote

So the cows are consenting to being treated this way? Are they asking for it? Are they thrilled to see their offspring stolen from them and forced into the same treatment? Is it natural for their bodies to be repeatedly impregnated and milked until they're no longer physically able to? Are dairy products the only easy method to get vital nutrients such as calcium?

I'm not trying to disrespect people's choices, I'm trying to educate and open their eyes about the horrors of the meat and dairy industries. There's tons of vegan alternatives that are widely available and provide just as much nutrition and taste very similar. Why then would someone continue to support animal abuse after being exposed to these truths? Not to mention the environmental impacts as well. Hell, I could even go as far as exposing the dairy industry propaganda, but that's another argument altogether..

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El_Tigre t1_is1lqzs wrote

They can’t consent, they’re cows. They’re food. It’s how we get milk and dairy products. Vegan alternatives are heavily dependent on soy, gluten and nuts. The three largest allergens there are so some vegan alternatives aren’t viable for everyone. There are environmental impacts for dairy and meat alternatives, as well. Dairy is extremely easy to get as it’s widely available, it’s not the only way to get it, for sure.

I understand your position, I don’t agree. There’s dairy industry propaganda I agree with that. You don’t think your position is anchored in privilege, though? Like you’ve got the ability to “expose” the dairy industry through using inflammatory language and representing standard industry practices as “rape” and “stealing”. That’s your perspective.

I see cows and other animals as living beings, but I also see them as food. You’re free to look at others that consume meat and dairy products as supporters of animal abuse, I don’t agree.

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