kippypapa t1_j9se6cz wrote
Overall it sounds good but the 20% lower income requirement is a poison pill. The non-low income units will all be “luxury” priced to make up for the low rents/sales for the low-income units. When renters/buyers are paying a premium, they don’t want low income neighbors - plenty of complaints about this all over the state. Builders won’t build as a result. It won’t do much for regular people.
I’m generally not a fan of low income housing except for the seriously disabled. Keeping low wage earners’ cost of living artificially low just ends up as a subsidy for the wealthy - government pays most of their rent so employers don’t have to pay it as wages. trying to move up in income means you lose money because you lose the housing subsidy. It’s a feel good policy that provides a lot of carrots and sticks to keep people poor. This is how people who are able to move up the socioeconomic ladder don’t. This prevents low income housing from opening up for people with mental health issues and other disabilities that prevent work.
Starrion t1_j9sftjl wrote
We did that in Mass. and it got a lot of housing built. The thing is that when people hear 'low income' they are thinking Section 8. When even the low income people are couples that have 60K jobs, a lot of the stigma goes away.
EasternMotors t1_j9toz64 wrote
Government (people) could require monetary payments to benefit all instead of subsidized housing for households in the 70th+ income percentile. But all those middle class people who can't afford a house think they have a chance at winning this lottery.
Starrion t1_j9tsjk8 wrote
These units aren’t subsidized. The builder has to offer them to get them built. We really need to asses the effects of things like Airbnb on our housing supply. There isn’t enough space in many regions to increase stock without building high density developments.
EasternMotors t1_j9u4v83 wrote
They are subsidized. The difference between market rate and the rate paid is the subsidy. It doesn't matter that the government agreed to forgo some benefit ($$) instead of spending money to directly subsidize.
Fantastic if you are one of the upper middle class people getting the housing subsidy. If you aren't one of those people, you paid for the subsidy.
Starrion t1_j9udx98 wrote
Local government loses the chance to block development. There is no cash cost to the town that can be counted as a subsidy. The only net effect for the town is that people were able to buy the units cheaper or rent for cheaper than if the development wasn't built under that rule.
Putting payments to all would simply cause prices to rise further if you have more money chasing the same scarce housing stock.
EasternMotors t1_j9uk5it wrote
The cost is whatever they could have obtained instead of the subsidized units. Google "community benefits agreement" for examples.
Starrion t1_j9urpwg wrote
That would be valid IF the towns or cities were willing to negotiate towards building the development. In most cases the developments are built in spite of the towns objections, so there is no CBA asked or offered.
AftyOfTheUK t1_j9u8ctw wrote
>The non-low income units will all be “luxury” priced to make up for the low rents/sales for the low-income units.
Thats the entire point. The wealthier people will be subsidising the lower income units. That's literally the intention of the law, not a problem to be complained about.
kippypapa t1_j9utg2j wrote
It is a problem because there is no middle class housing. It means that aspiring to be middle class no longer becomes possible. These laws and similar start with the assumption that the poor will always be poor and that no change is ever possible in someone’s life, that there’s only rich and poor.
When you install policies like this, you pull rungs from the ladder. If you’re goal is to alleviate poverty, the best way of doing so is by making people’s labor more valuable. By keeping a mass of people in place, you devalue their individual labor because there’s always someone who will take the lowball wage offer. If housing were let to be dictated by the market, the poor would face a choice: upskill to make their labor more valuable or move to an area where their labor/cost of living calculation is in their favor. Over their lives, this ends up bettering them and reduces poverty. By removing incentives to do so, you keep people poor.
I’ve seen this a lot. I lived in LA and my neighbors all had some form of rent subsidy. None of the kids had an education and worked low wage jobs. Some who moved away ended up owning homes in other cities and gained wealth through appreciation hence reducing the wealth gap. Their kids all went to college because there were not enough low skill jobs where they went. In the end, the people “pushed” out had better lives and were less precarious financially than those who stayed.
We shouldn’t care about places: all this talk about displacement, erasure and gentrification. We should care about people. A feel good solution that appears to be nice to the poor ends up hurting them long term. We should incentivize people to move to locations where they are able to make financial and educational investments in themselves since self sufficieny is the best way to guard against the dangers of poverty. Many people on Reddit want government action in all aspects of life. My answer to that is we had 2 years with Trump, Republican Congress and conservative Supreme Court. The only thing preventing them from destroying safety nets was Trumps incompetence. Some day there will be a Trump who isn’t incompetent and that person will end safety nets. The people dependent on government at that time will face a harsh reality since they won’t have experience in self sufficiency.
AftyOfTheUK t1_j9vgijv wrote
>It is a problem because there is no middle class housing.
Middle Class in a city in San Francisco simply has different income requirements to other cities. All cities are different.
>These laws and similar start with the assumption that the poor will always be poor and that no change is ever possible in someone’s life
The laws have nothing to do with changing circumstances, they simply force everyone else to subsidise people who don't earn a lot of money.
>When you install policies like this, you pull rungs from the ladder.
I agree, I don't like affordable housing policies because they've fucked me over for most of my life. I've been renting, and paying out of the ass to rent, because the properties I'm renting are in the band that's subsidising affordable housing.
I'm 44 and don't own a house. A friend of mine bought an affordable unit in a neighbourhood I lived in over 15 years ago. He's got his house bought and paid for, completely paid off, yet I don't own one despite subsidizing him with both my taxes and increased rent.
kippypapa t1_j9vitgr wrote
Right, your living my exact same life almost. If I get a worse paying job and move to SF, I’d qualify for a below market rate condo or section 8 and be fine. I’ve honestly considered it but the BMR stuff in SF is a dumpster fire. I was living in LA, and as you say, paying tax and high rent so my neighbors could live cheaply.
A big draw of SF are the amenities. If you didn’t have rent control, section 8, and BMR, low income people would leave. That would mean fewer restaurants, fewer bars, clubs, cultural events, etc making it less attractive and more people would leave. Eventually, the city would find its balance between people, wages and business. The way we do it now, we create these imbalances where the rich get cheap labor, the poor get stuck and everyone else gets fucked. If we just let the free market work, we wouldn’t be in such a mess.
TV2693 t1_j9szteq wrote
Nice summation. But I have a question, in LA what is generally the cap income for receiving a rent controlled apt or house(does having dependents also factor in)? Also, let's say a six figure income earner wants to live under their means to build wealth. Could they rent in the same property as the lower income folks?
kippypapa t1_j9ur96s wrote
I lived in LA. So low income means you qualify for a housing subsidy like section 8. Rent control means your rent is capped your initial rent plus a 2-9% increase every year depending on inflation.
Yes, a wealthy person can get a rent controlled apartment and live there to benefit from the limit on rent increases. The issue is that landlords don’t maintain the property so you’re getting a 70 year old apartment that feels like a 70 year old apartment. My neighbors would do their own repairs when legally the landlord has to do them because he wouldn’t. It prevents natural turnover in apartments so the next person coming in pays a lot more. I was paying $1000/month more than my neighbors for the same crappy place. I was basically subsidizing them. I’m some cases, they made 3-4x what I made. There was no reason for them to continue in those apartments, but they were able to benefit from it since the next place would have cost double.
TV2693 t1_j9wr2xz wrote
Sounds like a crock of shit. That doesn't incentivize people to try for better jobs and educate themselves and such.
[deleted] t1_j9tc4ny wrote
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