Flashing Yellow School Zone Speed Signs Should be Mandatory Alongside Zone Cameras

Submitted by BiffBiffkenson t3_10n1i3k in RhodeIsland

If it is really about the safety of the children (it should be) then the flashing yellow signs that warn drivers to slow for school zones and indicate the speed limit should be there by State law whether or not there are speed cams in place.

School zones are less safe due to the purposeful lack of visibility of the black and white cam sign setups especially where these yellow flashing signs were removed likely as part of the contract with the camera companies.

I got one once in EP a year ago where I didn't even know there was a school.

Recently I started to think that these speed cam setups seem to ignore the public's need of Government to protect school children from errant speeding vehicles while catering to income needs instead.

Am I way off base here?

Not sure if there is an advocate of school safety in State Government who can be approached to shame legislators into making this law but if someone knows please speak up and I will contact them.

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Comments

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mykittyforprez t1_j66xjid wrote

My beef with the EP High area is that by the time you hit the school zone signage, you've already gone past the speed limit sign so you don't know what the posted limit is. They should include at least a couple more signs posting the limit around all the school zone markings.

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BigE1263 t1_j68e3q4 wrote

Funny you mention that. I noticed this coming off the highway going home and didn’t realize how big of a problem it is.

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TzarKazm t1_j68vc9k wrote

All school zones are 20mph in RI and MA. I do like the idea of flashing signs but the limit is always 20.

Unless you mean the hours it changes, which are posted too small to read and figure out before you are past them anyway.

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majoroutage t1_j695lrn wrote

RI school zones, and thus the cameras, are allowed to be in effect all day. 7 AM to 6 PM.

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TzarKazm t1_j6966n8 wrote

I don't have a problem with that. If there are kids at the school, you slow down. I guess having it be in effect on weekends would be kind of dumb.

I just like the idea of flashing signs because if you don't normally go to an area you might not know where the zone starts and ends.

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majoroutage t1_j696aih wrote

Oh, I agree, the more notice the better, but that's the exact opposite intent of the camera system.

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TzarKazm t1_j697bc5 wrote

I'm not sure how I feel about the cameras. I'm mostly on the side of dislike, but I think that has more to do with the implementation, not that cameras should be forbidden. I think there is potential to do it the right way, but I don't really have enough information to make a well informed decision. I definitely don't want fines used as revenue for cities and towns.

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BiffBiffkenson OP t1_j696cf2 wrote

EP at least is 7am to 4pm in tiny writing on the smallest sign.

I think it's Providence who wants to install these everywhere. Maybe they can take some of this revenue to fill in potholes before people are lost in them never to be seen again.

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majoroutage t1_j69p8oc wrote

Sadly, I'm in Pawtucket, where they run them every minute they are legally allowed.

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majoroutage t1_j6954gb wrote

Yeah, most people are already accelerating to escape the intersection, only to hit that 25MPH zone. Ugh.

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mcchickenmommy t1_j69gsvh wrote

i thought it would be common sense that schools zones = 20/25mph

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BiffBiffkenson OP t1_j69mv3e wrote

It is so why downplay that notification to drivers? Why remove flashing yellow school zone signs and replace them with non flashing black and white signs?

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Coincel_pro t1_j67tcsg wrote

The overlap of pro camera folks with the “if you don’t do anything wrong you don’t have to worry about the cops” is pretty high.

Camera systems are there because they earn money and it wouldn’t be surprising that someone in the pipeline that approved and purchased them is getting a nice kickback over it as well.

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BiffBiffkenson OP t1_j68dzud wrote

I know in front of Bay View there were yellow flashing school zone lights, those were removed and now there are large black and white signs saying school zone. If you didn't know the area you could easily miss that which is the idea and just continue at the speed limit.

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radioflea t1_j67f19u wrote

It’s never been about safety it’s always been about profit. In 2020 the camera outside McCoy stadium made $376,000 in fines and schools were completely closed due to Covid.

EP/Pawtucket are the biggest grifters in this game and they outsource the billing to Massachusetts. Per City of Pawtucket nobody in Rhode Island wanted the billing work which I also believe is a lie.

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cowperthwaite t1_j68hi8s wrote

Story on the "ticket-demic":

https://www.providencejournal.com/story/news/local/2021/01/12/pawtucket-speed-camera-next-to-covid-testing-site-signs-nets-100-k-7-weeks/6638146002/

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radioflea t1_j698ij4 wrote

ETA I think one of the bonuses of having PHS move to McCoy stadium will be that Jenks and PHS will be on one street and 2 of the current school zone cameras (Shea/Tollman) can be removed and residents can simply navigate around Division street and avoid the citations all together.

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BuntCarf t1_j67s35h wrote

The people saying "slow down" would probably be happy to know that your elected politician sold you out for a measly 12.5% of whatever fine is incurred, as the state takes another 12.5% and the company that owns the camera gets to run off with 75% of that money. It has nothing to do with the safety of children, because if thats the case then why are there cameras at the border of EP and Seekonk? Or on Roger Williams/North Broadway? There's not even a school near there. Getting a ticket from a camera is the exact same thing as if I saw you litter and I sent a pic to the police to tattle on you and they sent you a ticket for it.

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barsoapguy t1_j69kdot wrote

That last part would be a great idea, the police can’t be everywhere to catch people In the act and litter is a pretty big problems.

I understand why it can’t happen but it would be great if there more ways to catch people in the act.

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BuntCarf t1_j69mf93 wrote

I mean as stupid as it sounds that would almost make more sense and would be better than some Swedish company that manufactures the cameras snitching me out. Litterbugs -should- be fined but just about everybody I've ever met in my entire life goes at the very least 1 mile over the speed limit, which by definition is speeding.

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barsoapguy t1_j69prom wrote

I’d assume the cameras have a 5 MPG tolerance even in the school zones .

0

galeeb t1_j677mpb wrote

Yes!! I know people just get downvoted complaining about the cameras ("well you were going over the speed limit so you got what you deserved!") but I drove through a school zone during the school day a few weeks back, guess I've never driven there since the cameras were installed. Was going to a temp job. I went back home during the day to take out my dog, and drove back. I realized later I the bright lights I saw must've been me getting a ticket - both times I went there. I was going 27mph when I looked the second time.

I realized later the speed limit sign was on the pole just as you turn, but realistically no one would look up and to the right while turning right onto a street, but I'm sure the judge you'd contest with wouldn't care. The sign is not posted in an easily viewable location except for folks already on the road driving straight.

Got up early, spent half the day at this job, and in the end I'll pay more than I made. I really disagree with folks who think it's a perfectly reasonable situation. We can be comfortable preaching about driving in a neighborhood where we know every side street and one-way, but I guarantee if you traveled to another city where you got multiple $50 tickets driving 27mph on a wide road with no traffic and no pedestrians, the sanctimonious displays would get toned down.

It also drives me crazy that Providence enjoys its liberal reputation but we charge a software engineer and a house cleaner a wildly different percentage of daily income for driving 25mph (or whatever the threshold is) or crossing a red light line 0.1 seconds late. We can have safety without usury, and Providence continues to do a somewhat poor job (admittedly, the city is diverse even in its safety measures across neighborhoods, and I'm speaking about the areas I know).

So that got me thinking about a comparable situation. Ideally we want safety for citizens, pedestrians, and drivers. I live near an actual dangerous intersection, and over the years probably witnessed a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of auto damage to unsuspecting drivers outside, quite a few injuries, and some property damage to houses, too. I've been lucky to not have seen a death yet, but one will certainly happen here with time. Notified City Council, written repeatedly, but they've done nothing to make the intersection safer. I'm confident in saying more people have been injured here than in front of any of the schools before they had cameras. Safety is not the true priority.

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FezzikSPrestonEsq t1_j69acs4 wrote

You didn't get a ticket going 27. Tickets aren't issued until 31mph (10+mph over the 20mph school zone limit)and if you get one at 31 and go to court Caprio at least will dismiss it.

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galeeb t1_j69ihvo wrote

That's good to hear. Sounds like it was someone behind me then. fingers crossed

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Mountain_Bill5743 t1_j6eqgsf wrote

This guy is right about 31 triggering it. I used to drive through one multiple times a day near my house and at least 10 times it was triggered by someone speeding in the opposite lane closest to the camera. I never once got a ticket for those, although it was stressful.

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[deleted] t1_j67kono wrote

If you were at 27, you were over the urban speed limit under state law.

Now, you can argue that it’s unreasonable, but you can’t argue you weren’t speeding.

If it takes a fine to get people to follow the surface street speed limits, I’m okay with it. People in this state drive WAY over the urban speed limit all the time, which is why there are so many hit-and-run accidents in town.

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FoleyisGood t1_j685zwx wrote

You must be a pig or a bootlicker

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[deleted] t1_j68iw9t wrote

Nah. Just someone who thinks people should drive safely and who values our kids.

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godmode33 t1_j67yaug wrote

You are confusing "child safety" with "revenue collection" No one cares about the Childrens safety. It's 100% about extorting money from citizens. Flashing warning signs that say "you are about to be extorted" don't help you collect money from your fellow man.

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GiraffeNinja6 t1_j68irvh wrote

The child safety comes from the crossing guards in the morning and afternoon when the vast majority of kids are outside. The camera in front of McCoy still goes off after 5pm if I'm not mistaken.

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majoroutage t1_j694h7l wrote

And the flashing blues and reds from a stationed officer.

>The camera in front of McCoy still goes off after 5pm if I'm not mistaken.

They all do. 7 AM to 6 PM. It's such a racket.

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Mountain_Bill5743 t1_j6etpem wrote

Tbf, this is the time frame that a teacher was killed in a hit and run a few years back in PVD leaving after school activities: https://www.abc6.com/mount-pleasant-high-teacher-killed-in-hit-and-run/

It is a cash grab first and foremost, but it can both be a cash grab and an issue with people not paying attention during after school events. My teacher friend was hit by a drunk driver leaving her school lot at 3pm (thankfully in her car).

Hell, I drive over 10+ speed bumps getting home every day which have all been installed in the last 3 years because while I'm a good driver, the bad drivers here ruin it for the rest of us. It's like we're the speed bump capitol of the world.

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beerspeaks t1_j68m1jk wrote

Can I be anti-camera, anti-cop, but pro-slowing down? Or is that too nuanced of a take?

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CoffeeMilkSteaks t1_j66kut5 wrote

Im not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. I know Goff on Newport Ave in Pawtucket still has the yellow flashing lights. I can't say for certain if other schools have those lights but I know every speed camera has large neon signs that warn you of the cameras. Even the red light cameras have signs to warn you. While I agree that the cameras seem more about the money then safety, they do seem to give you enough of a warning of there presence.

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BiffBiffkenson OP t1_j68cx76 wrote

I can name several places where the flashing yellow signs were removed in EP when the camera setups were installed.. The only signs i see are large black and white signs - not neon. My experience is mainly with EP with regard to these set ups.

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CoffeeMilkSteaks t1_j68up5w wrote

Im not familiar with every spot in EP but I know in front of St Margarets there are neon signs and im pretty sure in front of the High School there is too. The ones I come across in Pawtucket and CF all have the neons signs. I don't think it matters if they are neon or black or white as you yourself said you see the black and white ones.

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BiffBiffkenson OP t1_j68ylv8 wrote

I'm not sure you are using the term neon correctly. In EP the signs are a flat black and white. Not lit up which neon implies nor are they even shiny. There are some static yellow signs (not at all locations) also not neon. They do not light up. Neon is a gas inside a tube that when electricity is connected to it - it lights up.

The day I got that ticket I hadn't been through there in some time. There is a black and white sign that says 'Speed Limit Traffic Laws Photo Enforced' Which is a mouthful to read the first time going through there. A little further down the road there is a static yellow sign (that is NOT neon) that repeats the warning. Underneath are much smaller signs, one says 'violators prosecuted' underneath that is one that says 7am to 4pm' NOTHING about school zone yet going the other way - north there is a sign that says 'school zone ends' so all this time you are already driving in a school zone. The only posted speed sign is 30mph.

So in fact here the ONLY things alluding to school zone are the school crossing sign directly across from St Margarets and the two 'end school zone' signs.

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CoffeeMilkSteaks t1_j69347d wrote

Yeah true you're right. I usually refer to them as neon even though they are not "neon" in the correct sense. Im not sure what else to call them? Safety green? Bright yellow? I was under the impression that they are only placed in school zones so their presence alone indicates a school zone.

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BiffBiffkenson OP t1_j6986is wrote

You bring up a good point. Maybe the yellow signs even sans saying anything about school zone symbolize school zones. I will have to look at a drivers manual to see if that is the case.

Downloaded the manual and those signs are not in the manual just school crossing signs.

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CoffeeMilkSteaks t1_j69b2qr wrote

You mean the one from 2015? The crosswalk sign has no words or flashing light attached to it yet I still know what to do. I'm honestly not trying to disagree with you. Putting a flashing light up back up isn't going to take the cameras away.

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BiffBiffkenson OP t1_j69c033 wrote

I'm not advocating taking the cameras away at all. I'm saying the flat black signs sans any flashing lights are not as safe as the yellow flashing signs that were actually taken away in some places.

Not every driver is from the area and be honest those black and white signs are not for safety they are there so people will not notice that it is a school zone and get a ticket.

In the western part of the State school zone signs of any type are lacking. Those places should also have a flashing sign indicating school is in session and to slow down.

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CoffeeMilkSteaks t1_j69k3ow wrote

Ok i'm just trying to understand what it is you would prefer? Camera, large signage, and flashing lights? Or just camera and flashing lights and remove the large signs all together?

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BiffBiffkenson OP t1_j69lk8s wrote

Just add the flashing yellow signs that say school zone and have the speed limit posted on them.

I thought that was clear in my post.

In some cases these were simply removed from school zones in EP. Not sure why except that it makes it less urgent with a flat black and white sign.

Are you of the opinion that its not possible to have those along with the flat black and white signs?

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CoffeeMilkSteaks t1_j69tiji wrote

Yes it's possible to have flashing lights too but it really would be overkill. Theres already enough large bright yellow signage.

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BiffBiffkenson OP t1_j69djnw wrote

Yes but you are well within the school zone by the time you see the school crosswalk sign.

A school crosswalk is no different from any crosswalk though. When someone is trying to cross the street at a normal crosswalk it is the law to stop and in some municipalities that applies without a crosswalk. Maybe the fine for not stopping is higher than it is at a normal crosswalk though.

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CammiKit t1_j68m18t wrote

If it was really about the safety of the kids, it wouldn’t be speed cameras.

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majoroutage t1_j69639r wrote

Yup. They would have an officer posted, and violations would be at their discretion.

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Loveroffinerthings t1_j67wj66 wrote

The thing that bothers me, in P-tuck it on mineral spring by Slater elementary, the light will be flashing on a Saturday afternoon at 4pm during the summer. Not sure if the light activates the cameras to activate lower speeds or not, but there are no children around, it’s not a school day, and it’s not the school year. Law abiders like me will slow to 20, and the people behind me get pissed. It happens in other areas too, flashing light on a Sunday afternoon, or 8pm on a Monday.

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EliBruins63 t1_j6881kw wrote

See the problem is you can put up all the signs in the world but can’t make people read/follow the signs. The school zone on west man rd in Portsmouth has the flashing lights and signs indicating your speed yet people still fly through it. Portsmouth PD is very good at keeping a presence in that school zone when the lights are active but you always have people fly through who don’t care

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TzarKazm t1_j68wf5u wrote

I see someone go through that zone doing over 30 (sometimes 40 or 50) several times a week. The only reason it's not every day is the traffic doesn't allow it.

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EliBruins63 t1_j698n1c wrote

Yeah it’s unbelievable. I have 2 kids that are almost at the elementary school age so it really pisses me off when people fly through school zones. My go to strategy is to pace a car going 20 through there. Make sure asshats don’t have room to fly

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BiffBiffkenson OP t1_j68dmoh wrote

It is mainly the NY, NJ, MA, CT plates that completely ignore that because they don't care. Portsmouth PD are rarely there ime.

I have seen out of State cars zig zag through cars going 20 through there.

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EliBruins63 t1_j68upgt wrote

Yeah I have too. And idk I don’t go through it very often cause I live in Middletown and work in Newport during the week but I usually see them sitting there when I go through

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BiffBiffkenson OP t1_j68wobk wrote

Maybe it's a time of day thing. I know they sit at what is it, Cindy's? Now that school is a place that would benefit from adding school zone cameras. Just keep the existing flashing yellow signs.

East and West Main are really difficult to Police because they are so narrow and older people can remember when the speed limit was 55 on both. If you are traveling 35 on East Main you will come close to being pushed off the road. Out of State cars weave in and out of traffic like its a speedway on East and West Main especially when they are leaving.

There was talk there of 2 travel lanes and a third for turns which would decrease accidents just like there was talk of rotaries in Bristol, Warren and Barrington. It's common for two lanes to move to one setting up a drag race also in Bristol County.

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EliBruins63 t1_j698ern wrote

Wait they used to be 55mph zones? That’s crazy lol I live on a street off west main and it’s a pain in the ass enough to get in and out of sometimes with a 35mph limit. And yeah they either sit and Cindy’s or in the second lot of the school itself. Used to sit where that shell quick lube is but I haven’t seen that in awhile

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BiffBiffkenson OP t1_j69ck9n wrote

Years ago, East Main anyway, maybe it was 50 but it was 50 or 55. West Main not positive but West Main is 45 for much of it now.

They did recently patch East Main, it was unbelievably bad.

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EliBruins63 t1_j69d4bc wrote

Yeah that patch job was much needed. Especially down by the church. Shit I’ve driven on dirt roads that were smoother than that section

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mrcrowley1957 t1_j68hmix wrote

I will never stop at any business in EP. Try to avoid going thru when possible. If no-one visited their city it would end this nonsense.

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BuntCarf t1_j69opmb wrote

I would also like to point out that speed cameras are only on M-F during certain hours. Red light cameras are running constantly. You will not get a ticket for speeding in a school zone on a Saturday unless you're seen doing so by a cop.

Thresholds for these cameras vary, if im not mistaken for 20mph zones there isn't any enforcement until 30mph and above. Ive set my cruise control to 29 and haven't been ticketed. Bob DaSilva originally ordered the threshold be lowered to just 6 mph over the posted speed limit and was quickly informed that he doesn't make the rules.

You cannot fight a camera ticket though it says you may dispute it on the back. Basically your only respite is if you can prove that you were not the driver of the vehicle when the infraction was committed, in which case you both have to appear at a hearing and somebody still gets stuck with a $50-$85 bill. You can not use a good driving statute to dismiss the charges because it's a civil penalty, not a charge. The charge of speeding through a school zone will never appear on any record. Failure to pay these fines may result in the charge going to a collections department, however im not entirely sure EP or Pawtucket even have a collections department.

Shouldn't the burden of proof be on the municipality? Or maybe the camera company? Prove to me im the one speeding, I shouldn't have to self incriminate and agree to pay your fines. Its a tax, just like those tolls that were just found to be unconstitutional. Wait and see who gets to pay for those!

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claudedusk8 t1_j68u2is wrote

Please turn in your driver's license.

−2

BiffBiffkenson OP t1_j68un63 wrote

Advocating for more safety means someone can't drive?

That's an interesting take on this. Have you had your coffee yet today?

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majoroutage t1_j695vfq wrote

Hopefully they just mean they're extremely surprised it took you this long to figure out the revenue enforcement part.

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BiffBiffkenson OP t1_j697ng0 wrote

I have figured out the revenue enforcement part of it but I think turn about is fair play so advocating for more safety which would decrease revenue because people would be less likely to be caught off guard (it is about safety) with the same flashing yellow signs showing the school speed limit in the center would put these cities in no win situation.

How can they argue against more effective school safety?

I mean from their point of view if a child is hit but the drivers pays the $50 fine for speeding they have done all they can prior to the incident. Obviously post such an incident the driver has consequences but this is about prevention.

1

Nicksucksathiking t1_j688tsg wrote

Oh so kids are now too stupid to cross the street by themselves

−5

BiffBiffkenson OP t1_j68d922 wrote

School areas have always been designated school traffic zones at least in my lifetime which goes back 6 decades.

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GiraffeNinja6 t1_j68jenv wrote

It has always been assumed that they are, whether or not it's true. As they don't have the fully developed reasoning abilities to tell if something will have long term consequences. That's why there's crossing guards. It's hard to get a group of kids to stand at one intersection and wait for a light to turn and then take into account people turning or maybe speeding to make the yellow.

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[deleted] t1_j67kgx3 wrote

It’s easy to avoid getting a ticket. Follow the state speed limit on urban surface roads (25 MPH) and the school signs are easy to see. I’ve never known anyone doing 25 getting a school zone ticket — they’re usually 10 miles over the urban surface street speed limit.

It’s not uncommon to get people illegally passing me on surface streets when I’m doing 25 and they want to blast by at 40. I have zero sympathy for such unsafe driving.

−7

sailri t1_j6ej41h wrote

Actually if there are urban surface roads with a 30 MPH or 35 MPH speed limit - are you saying you do 25, and you expect that others do to? Well that sort of defeats the use of signage all together then. Do you want to name a specific city with urban surface roads, I'm sure commenters could point out 30-40 MPS limits being posted in some of them.

1

[deleted] t1_j6ejas0 wrote

Obviously if there’s a divided highway, that’s a different story.

But most New Englanders seem to take offense at the idea that they should drive safely and follow the rules. That’s why those cameras are there — the pedestrian fatality rate in the northeast is appalling.

Some idiot blasting down Branch Ave or Gano Street at 40 MPH isn’t the same as a drive down a divided highway. (Though they seem to think it is).

1

huh_phd t1_j68bpxy wrote

#think of the children

−7

Status_Silver_5114 t1_j66j65e wrote

The bright yellow school zone sign isn’t enough? Just be a better driver, leadfoot.

−18

BiffBiffkenson OP t1_j68cnre wrote

Those signs don't exist in most places that have these zone cameras, in fact if you actually read what I wrote you'd know in many cases in EP the flashing yellow signs for school zones were removed.

1

Status_Silver_5114 t1_j68d7sc wrote

Not knowing where a school is is not an excuse to speed. City speed limits are 25 anyway (only 5 above school zone limit) and to get a ticket you have to be doing 29/30 anyway so you were already speeding that’s the reality. So leadfoot still applies. Blaming signage is just an excuse.

−2

BiffBiffkenson OP t1_j68iv4p wrote

This was coming south around the corner on Newport Ave approaching St Margaret's I was just in traffic with everyone else going the same speed as everyone else at the start of rush hour.

I never said it was an excuse but a flashing school zone sign eliminates that as opposed to the static black and white signs the camera company put up.

If you don't understand that their signs are designed NOT to be seen I have a bridge to sell you.

1

sailri t1_j6arhmb wrote

If you're saying the speed limits in East Prov are limited to 25 your are out of touch, and incorrect. And while you may not need to know when you're speeding, you certainly do need a sign to tell you when others are. "You're still speeding"?

0

Status_Silver_5114 t1_j6azqzn wrote

I’m saying city speed limits in generally are 25 unless posted otherwise so by going above that regardless of signage is making a choice to speed. Unless you know you’re in a 30+ you’re just being a reckless driver by choice and deserve a ticket. But you know that and just want carte Blanche to drive like a jerk and somehow get off with no consequence.

1

listen_youse t1_j66giv9 wrote

Way off base. Slow down, pay attention and stop whining.

−24

Smrgle t1_j66x297 wrote

More attention can’t possibly be a bad thing. Also how am I supposed to know what hours the school zones are in some cases? I can’t even see the parking lot until I am well into the school zone. You’re advocating for less safety and accessibility

4