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StonksGuy3000 t1_iv5nakg wrote

Reply to comment by MikeMac999 in Governor debate… A question by Subject_Ad_2919

This is such a bizarre argument. Ik it has kind of crept into the mainstream discourse, but it still feels very tin-foil hat-ish.

There are plenty of good reasons to vote for Dems, particularly given the economy and the resulting need for reasonable social safety nets and tax plans that favor average Joes over big businesses. Saying if they lose, we’ll never have a choice again is just ridiculous

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MikeMac999 t1_iv5ofxq wrote

Have you paid any attention to the voter suppression efforts on the right? Trump himself has said that if everyone who could vote did vote, there would never be another republican elected to office. Combine that with election deniers in positions of voting authority in red states. So no, this is not a ridiculous argument at all, as much as I wish it was.

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therealDrA t1_iv5z1pb wrote

All of these new election laws that have passed will come in to play in 2024. Many states now give legislatures power over how votes are counted. The Republicans are hoping to get in enough election deniers in legislatures and secretary of states offices in 2022 so that they can manipulate the count and do so legally in 2024. So if the GQP gains power this cycle, they will never give it back.The laws in many states allow legislatures to cheat if bad actors are in place. The courts will not be able to do anything because those are the state laws. Also, expect more voter suppression laws to pass with even more GQP in office. This is not tin foil...this is real..and how autocracies are born. This is how it started in Hungary with Orban.

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StonksGuy3000 t1_iv5wprh wrote

Have you paid any attention to American politics for the past 20+ years? Election denial has been a thing since at least Bush v Gore, although Trump was clearly the most extreme offender. That said, people including Hillary Clinton claimed for years that Trump was an illegitimate president. Likewise, Biden’s message of “you can only vote for our party if you want to preserve democracy” seems laughable. Thanks for telling me I only have one choice in this so-called democracy.

I voted almost solely for democrats in 2022, and I’ll likely begrudgingly support Biden or whoever the Dems run in 2024 because I could never support someone as radical as Trump (or Desantis), but to act like the Dems aren’t election deniers too seems willfully ignorant

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therealDrA t1_iv67l4n wrote

Oh please, Clinton conceded the day after the election. Trump still has not conceded and lies about it everyday for two years. Trump tried to overthrow the election with a mob. No comparison.

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StonksGuy3000 t1_iv6p9qt wrote

I mean, you’re correct that Trump has been 10x worse in this regard. But to say Clinton’s actions aren’t problematic is just willful ignorance. She conceded shortly after the election but then proceeded to say the election was stolen and that Trump is an illegitimate president for years afterwards. This has become a new norm in American politics, and I’d be pleasantly surprised if there aren’t several losing candidates in 2022 who claim they lost due to a rigged election

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MikeMac999 t1_iv65sxy wrote

Gore admitted defeat for the good of the country, even though his case was not built on lies the way Trumps is. Calling Trump an illegitimate president has roots in issues with the electoral college vs Trump not winning the majority of the popular vote; easy enough to disagree with perhaps but again at least it’s based on rational argument and not willful deception. And while I’m far from a Biden fan, he’s not trying to take away your choice, you are free to vote for whomever you like, he’s just making it clear what the very likely consequences of giving the republicans the keys to our elections will be. I can’t say the dems have been terribly inspiring, but the alternative means the very real possibility of permanently rigged elections.

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dman_usa t1_iv66x81 wrote

the president isnt elected based on the popular vote LOL

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MikeMac999 t1_iv68hk9 wrote

Obviously, but that is the concept behind the illegitimacy of Trump’s term, he did not have a winning percentage of the voting population behind him, he simply benefited from the deeply flawed electoral college, gerrymandering etc.

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StonksGuy3000 t1_iv6omjf wrote

That doesn’t make him illegitimate, and you could argue it’s a threat to democracy to try to contest it on that basis, especially after the fact. I voted Hillary, I think Trump is a moron and uses dangerous rhetoric, but I still wouldn’t try to advance the claim that Trump is illegitimate or that Hillary won

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MikeMac999 t1_iv6qwrt wrote

I agree, I’m just saying that at least there’s an understandable reasoning behind the claim.

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StonksGuy3000 t1_iv6o5vh wrote

That’s such a weak argument though. The electoral college has already been in place for how long? Sure, we can advocate for change and try to establish a new/better system, but if those were the rules going in, it’s ridiculous to try to claim victory or an illegitimate president based on winning some other metric (i.e. popular vote).

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MikeMac999 t1_iv6rnat wrote

I’m not claiming anything; I agree that the election was decided correctly. My point, and this was a tangential thing anyway, was that it was at least understandable why people would feel that way. The law doesn’t support them but more people voted against him so at least there’s a logic to it. Trumps claim of winning in 2020 is based on nothing more than his desire to remain in office, even his henchman Barr said there was nothing to support that.

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