artful_todger_502 t1_j4xqzkk wrote
The first minor fissure in the forced college scheme ... This is great. If this keeps up, they may have to make college affordable.
69FunnyNumberGuy420 t1_j50hbfh wrote
To be clear, higher education is good for society and good for everyone.
Gatekeeping access to the middle class by requiring people to go into six figures of debt to make $60K a year, not so much.
We need to make higher public education free for all who want it and be done with it.
artful_todger_502 t1_j52gx1g wrote
I totally agree. Education is what will make us a first-world country. That is why certain entities are terrified of it and vociferously against it. When I was younger, there was no stigma with not going to college. Some kids were college, some were trades. I wish we would get back to that. A system that demands a ransom/loansharking scheme for a career needs to go. Anything that can force the system back to a place where non-degreed people can have nice things would be a huge step to economic parity.
I will spare you the details of us trying to figure out my Wifes loans. 25 years and it didn't seem to budge. She eventually did qualify for the educator relief, but what we found out, or didn't, as it were, was mind-numbing. There was no one, over the course of at least 200 phone calls, who could tell us how her interest was accruing. They also lost 24x$400.00, or two years of payments. Just gone. It can't be fixed.
[deleted] t1_j52lm1e wrote
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IrrumaboMalum t1_j4yeop0 wrote
That won't happen until Federal subsidies for student loans is ended. As long as the Fed keeps handing out money willy nilly for students to go to any school they want, tuition will remain high because schools will have no reason to lower tuition.
Fstmiddy t1_j4ygp4w wrote
Don't blame government, blame servicers. They lobby both sides of the aisle hard for a cut of lenders money.
IrrumaboMalum t1_j4ykqi9 wrote
The government is at fault for creating the gravy train in the first place. They wanted to "open up" college for everyone, so they started guaranteeing loans. People went from graduating with little to no debt by working part time while going to school to graduating with decades of debt so the "non-profit" schools can rake in that sweet, sweet government money.
Yes, I do blame the government. They created the problem in the first place. The servicers exacerbated the problem for sure - but they were never in the position to create the situation they took advantage of.
[deleted] t1_j4zlnet wrote
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StupiderIdjit t1_j50dkbm wrote
"I can't afford to go to college." "Here, have some money." "THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT."
ItsjustJim621 t1_j50tefk wrote
To a degree. It would’ve been one thing if these loans were interest free…but they’re not.
IrrumaboMalum t1_j538uhq wrote
Government-backed loans should be interest-free.
Private lender loans shouldn't be interest-free.
IrrumaboMalum t1_j538shp wrote
S: "I can't afford to go to college."
G: "Here, have some money."
C: "Oh? The government is giving students money now? Well then...let's increase tuition!"
S: "I can't afford to go to college again!"
G: "Here, have some more money."
C: "Sweet...tuition increases coming!"
Repeat ad infinitum until we reach where we are today.
Yes, it is the government's fault.
StupiderIdjit t1_j539k46 wrote
It's not the fault of... I dunno... The people raising the price?
IrrumaboMalum t1_j53ain7 wrote
Government created the situation that others exploited. Full stop.
Stop licking the jackboot.
StupiderIdjit t1_j53aspr wrote
So maybe people... Shouldn't exploit it?
IrrumaboMalum t1_j53ceqt wrote
It is human nature to exploit situations like that that are ripe for exploitation. Similar to when price controls are implemented in response to inflation, so people go out and horde the basic necessities.
We will never overcome human nature.
So the government is still the root cause of the problem. They created the problem. Schools did what every business, and yes schools are a business, does when a huge pool of new customers is opened to them.
tellmeaboutyourcat t1_j4zxumn wrote
No, what they need to do is make community colleges free. Then no one will be forced to take loans to get higher education in the first place. That's the next step.
Atrocious_1 t1_j4ytith wrote
That's the opposite of what happened
IrrumaboMalum t1_j4z3dgj wrote
Wait...you think private party companies, the student loan providers, wanted the government to create government-funded competition with near infinite reserves of cash for them to compete against?
Really?
Completely wrong. That isn't how business works.
Private company student loan providers have "skin in the game" - they have limited cash reserves with which to make these loans, so they tend to be highly selective in who they lend to to ensure the people they lend to have the highest chance of repaying the loans. This was not a high profit business model prior to the advent of government-backed student loans, and schools also had lower tuition costs to attract as many students as possible.
Fast forward to the government offering government-back student loans. With a near infinite pool of money and the ability to garnish wages and tax returns, the government was able to lend money to anyone who applied. There were few to no standards, since the government was not overly worried about repayment since they had additional tools unavailable to private lenders in the form of the IRS.
Schools saw this new pool of students with effectively unlimited funding and saw a gravy train. Tuitions began to increase. Schools that used to do their own lending and financing stopped - the government would now handle that and if the student defaulted on the loan the school didn't have to worry about pursuing the money.
The government is 100% directly responsible for the cost of college tuition today. Now they are trying to find an "answer" to the problem they created. The answer is simple - end all government-subsidized loan programs. Grants are fine. Scholarships are fine. But the loans need to end as soon as possible. Once that bottomless well of money dries up, schools will have no choice but to lower tuitions, begin working with private lenders again and perhaps even reopen their own financial departments for lending and financing.
Atrocious_1 t1_j50k2zc wrote
Buddy Reagan stripped funding from education in the 80s.
If the fed was directly funding education you'd be paying $200 a semester like your boomer parents did.
IrrumaboMalum t1_j538hs8 wrote
Department of Education isn't the department that handles student loan guarantees.
I've broken it down as simply as I can without using single syllable words, and you still refuse to accept reality and insist the government is somehow not responsible for this entire mess.
tellmeaboutyourcat t1_j4zz2vl wrote
Thank you for passing this all out. I'd heard the headline argument before and it made sense, but it was useful seeing your explanation.
Govt backed loans were intended to make college accessible for everyone, so I would suggest that while you're right, those loans should go away, there still needs to be an option for those who can't afford private loans of their own. Enter: free community college for everyone. You can get your associates or a trade certification for free and then decide if going for a private loan is worth continuing from there.
My personal philosophy is that higher education is valuable for everyone - not just as a workforce credential, but as an experience and an opportunity to learn more and spend more time figuring out where you want to go with your future. It also provides an opportunity for established folks to go back to school for a career change, so it provides flexibility in the workforce. I'm 15 years out of college and I would love to be able to take classes part time to get new skills to change careers, but I can't afford daycare and mortgage AND tuition. Having free community college options would be priceless for working people to expand their earning potential!
IrrumaboMalum t1_j539iys wrote
Free community college is a good start. You can do most of your basic classes there, and then transfer to a "traditional" college and get your BA or BS degree while only paying two years of tuition.
Which should be significantly lower once the government gravy train ends.
We also need to eliminate the cultural concept that "higher education" only begins with a 4-year degree. I got a 2-year degree and I'm doing nuclear engineering work after being in the field for over 10 years now. We should encourage trade programs and associates degrees as acceptable higher education as well.
In fact in some fields a 2-year degree is more valuable than a 4-year degree. I started out as a technician before working my way into being an engineer. Companies need technicians to maintain equipment, manufacture equipment, test equipment and repair equipment. Companies don't want to pay a college graduate with a BS in EE or ME to be a technician - they want to pay them to be an engineer. So schools that offer a 2-year vocational training program that offers an associates degree are highly valuable, but are few and far between.
tellmeaboutyourcat t1_j53noku wrote
Exactly, I agree with everything you said here. I know many community colleges have trades programs built in (I took basic car repair courses at my local CC) as well as a variety of certificates available. There are a ton of ways to continue education beyond high school that doesn't require a private 4 year institution. Making more of those options free will make better jobs accessible to more people and will help a laundry list of economic issues.
Imagine what would happen if homeless vets could take trade courses for free while working the system to get back on their feet. Imagine if a single mom on disability could learn basic coding or get a certification in medical billing (an increasingly remote field).
I'm getting emotional, sorry. But education should be freely available and easily accessible for all. If we could make that investment we would see such an explosion in our economy.
IrrumaboMalum t1_j53qitx wrote
Right - people should have a choice instead of being led to believe that you will never amount to anything unless you have at least a 4 year degree.
Union apprentice programs. Trade schools. Two year schools. Four year schools. Masters and doctorate programs. All are valid forms of higher education, but society has a whole stigmatizes some of them.
Master carpenters can easily make six figures a year, but a college graduate in a cubicle with a BA degree will make fun of him because he isn't "educated." Society has programmed us almost since birth to seek that four year degree to be successful.
I got a two year degree. I started as a technician and now I'm a reactor engineer and will likely me moving on to a position with a utility at a plant in the next few years. But my "worth" in the eyes of society is low because I only have an associates degree and not a bachelors degree, nevermind that my work is far more beneficial to society than many four year degree graduates.
Whatever you want to do, the first two years should be free. Community college or trade school or a tech school. Union apprenticeships are often compensated. And, I believe, masters and doctorates can also be paid for by the school as an exchange of labor (you work for the program while advancing your studies, providing value to the school in exchange for the education).
thenewtbaron t1_j504you wrote
eh, not really. generally, you have been able to use experience or previous job level instead of college for the majority of positions for a while.
a lot of jobs on that list on the "new website" - the experience matters section of the employment website for the state didn't require college degrees before hand. many required less, like the lower clerical jobs just needed a high school diploma or GED equal and then there are more professional jobs that always cared more about your bonafides such as nursing licenses, and generally moving up in the state just required you to be at a lower level such as a clerical supervisor generally just needed you to have been a clerical worker for a while.
I think it does expand the list a little bit and puts a bit more emphasis on the experience, I don't think a couple thousand job openings will stop kids from going to college as a way to get education they would need to be able to get those jobs too.
HeyZuesHChrist t1_j50gb13 wrote
Have you ever tried to apply for a job with the Commonwealth? They have made it nearly impossible to get a job at this point regardless of experience and education. Believe me, I’ve tried. I have scored a 100/100 on every application I have done and the top three scores are guaranteed an interview. I have never even had an interview and have never even heard back from the Commonwealth except for one time when I e-mailed the POC for the position myself. People without a college degree are never going to score high enough on their application to even be considered.
thenewtbaron t1_j50tp2q wrote
Yes. I applied a shit ton 15 years ago and have been with the state ever since. It is hard internally too. a position opens up and many apply. I've been trying to move up for a while but haven't been able too for a LONG time.
I've also interviewed workers to be hired.
college degree doesn't effect your score unless you are using it as education in place of experience.
The state is sometimes hard to get into. There are only so many positions and while the money isn't great for the level of position you are in, the benefits and leave can't be beat. so you are competing against every other person who applies outside of state workers and competing against every other lower level state worker.
I don't know which positions you've applied for but there are ones that pop up all the time. clerk typists, income maintaince caseworkers and others.
DelcoMan t1_j51fqw1 wrote
Part of your problem here isn't education, it's stuff like veterans preference.
A "perfect" score can have additional points on top of it for veterans, so some positions that attracted a lot of candidates would need you to have something like 110 points out of 100 before you had a realistic shot at getting called.
Back when I was still with the PA DOC we had an applicant list thousands of names long that were over the 100 point mark.
It may have changed since I left, but I doubt it.
HeyZuesHChrist t1_j52g3a5 wrote
Actually that’s what happened one time. I know a guy who worked where I applied. When I told him I didn’t even get an interview he said they had hired a veteran. Those are the only ones who can score above a 100 I think. The dude didn’t even make it through the probationary period before they let him go.
Meanwhile, and not to give too much personal info away but I had been doing the exact job I applied for for 13 years at the time. This was a couple of years ago. I was a contractor and I had been doing the job for 13 years but because I was a contractor I was doing it with both of my hands tied behind my back. The job was in the same agency. They wouldn’t even need to train me so they really missed out. I was literally the PERFECT candidate.
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