To challenge a school bus camera ticket, potential issue from bus driver.

Submitted by MarmalAIDs t3_120j0a6 in Pennsylvania

Hi, im a Pennsylvania resident who was caught via bus camera running a school bus sign earlier this month.

Got a letter in the mail showing front, back, and license plate if my car passing a bus, saying pay a $300 fine. It didnt say anything else regarding penalty, but I know bus tickets are pretty bad regarding 5 points on and 2 months suspension on my license. Not sure if the points and suspension apply if being from a camera vs being pulled over by police. The ticket had instructions on how to view the videos online, which I did.

Video starts 2-3 seconds before the sign is opened on a right hand lane of a 4 lane road, no cars visible on the camera until the sign starting opening. At this point, approaching from the opposite direction, the front half of a white van is shown to quickly stop (like exponentially, quick to slow, showing the front dipping foward, followed by a few inches moving forward after mostly stopping). My car was in the right hand lane at the passenger back corner of the van, which I pass as it stopped, showing my car passing the van, followed by the still opening bus stop sign. The sign completley opens when im parallel/subtley ahead of the bus sign. My brakes were applied when I notcied the van started slowing, but not enough in time to not pass the bus, so I continued and released the brakes when I had already passed. The road has a speed limit of 35mph which I was following more or less 4mph +/- (local road I drive frequently, not an issue of speeding here) which would have not been slow enough to stop in time for when the sign became visable from my field of view. I recall this bus being up ahead about a 1 block range but there was no yellow lights indicating a stop ahead at that time, between then and the bus stopping, the view of the bus was blocked by a van I was next to.

What confused me as my experiences seeing school buses active while out working/driving has never been an issue (big, yellow, easy to spot, predictable behavior with the yellow+red lights). This bus from what I remember abruptly threw open the sign without enough distance for idication lights (video shows yellow light on corner of video which turned red when the sign opened, the yellow lights were on for all of a couple feet of distance and for 2-3 seconds, and not the require 150-300 feet before the stop), in addition to my position in relation the van next to me (i was at their passenger side back corner) blocked the view of the bus completley until I passed the van where the now visable sign was raising as I was passing the van.

The fine of $300 while it sucks isnt as worrying as 5 points and 2 months without a car, but considering what was mentioned, is there a chance to challenge this?

EDIT: footage https://youtu.be/LGkHrbGaErw

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walkamok t1_jdhk3d7 wrote

based on the video evidence, i dont think you are going to have much success fighting the ticket.

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dojijosu t1_jdhouvj wrote

Even if not, showing up to contest it can get the points negated sometimes. It’s usually worth it.

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prescientpretzel t1_jdhqosv wrote

Also showing up and just say you are sorry for passing at the time of the bus stop sign.

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MarmalAIDs OP t1_jdhkg38 wrote

While I feel the being blocked by a vehicle thing is 'opinion', the bus driver not having hazards on at 150-300ft is a law bus drivers adhear to. Like a bus driver not following the law to inform other drivers of their imminent stop should be a valid enough reason, right?

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Dyerssorrow t1_jdhuipx wrote

Like most said you may be able to get points reduced...but that fine is going to stick. You would have to have dashboard video proof that the bus driver failed to adhere to the law.

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walkamok t1_jdhwyah wrote

If the bus driver didn't follow laws to inform other drivers of the imminent stop, then how was the van able to safely stop in time?

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throwawayamd14 t1_jdi0n49 wrote

The dudes just a liar. In his original post he said he was slowing down/braking. At 7-9 seconds we can see the top of the hatch of his Mazda and the brake light at the top of the hatch isn’t lit. That light that’s on is his fog light. The guy didn’t even press his brakes lol

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MarmalAIDs OP t1_jdhyqvd wrote

The van got to witness potentially 4 seconds of yellow lights/part of the stop sign opening before the van was no longer obscuring my view, 4 seconds of time I didnt have in relation to the view of the bus being blocked by the van. Up the hill further back the bus was on lower ground and was visible from a further distance, but as the ground leveled the van blocked what would be where the bus stopped. The bus didnt have hazards/stop sign deployed when I was witnessing them driving ahead before the van obscured the view.

Also why i emphasize the 150-300ft the driver needed, as that would have been plenty of time and distance to inform me and the van to slow down to a stop (compared to the van slamming their breaks and me being out of view)

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walkamok t1_jdi8vz0 wrote

The bus was fully stopped and the stop sign was opening. If the sign was opening it means the lights were already red.

There was no close call or any sort of argument that it was yellow or you didn't have time to stop.

The video shows you fully earning the ticket.

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hic_maneo t1_jdhm2oh wrote

You fucked up. Admit it, take the L, pay the ticket, and move on with your life.

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MarmalAIDs OP t1_jdhnowo wrote

Youre a cop. Admit it, take the advice, keep it to yourself, and move on with your nonsense

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Er3bus13 t1_jdhp3l6 wrote

You could have hit a kid. Hope they take your license.

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MarmalAIDs OP t1_jdhrdlv wrote

Guess that bus driver should have indicated he was picking up kids with speeding cars going towards them. Imagine if I was behind the van, wouldve hit them instead because someone didnt do their job lol

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throwawayamd14 t1_jdhw2ct wrote

WOW you have some SERIOUS lack of accountability in you. If you are behind a driver and they stop and you rear end them that is ENTIRELY your fault EVERY SINGLE TIME regardless of why the person stopped yet you can’t even hypothetically take accountability lol

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pa_bourbon t1_jdkvgky wrote

You’re right someone didn’t do their job. That someone is you. You failed to stop. Pay more attention before you kill a kid.

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SuggestAPhotoProject t1_jdhpwsw wrote

Yes, you’re 100% guilty, and you should face the appropriate repercussions.

Also, calling people “bozos” that are trying to help you and trying to blame the bus driver for your mistake just shows that you’ve learned nothing from this incident, so maybe this appropriate punishment will help you to grow up a bit and learn to follow the rules of the road, especially around schoolchildren.

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MarmalAIDs OP t1_jdhrpmd wrote

Saying 'just take the ticket' is a bozo move tbh. At least contribute something worthwhile instead of repeating what other individuals effortless posts contain

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SuggestAPhotoProject t1_jdhwipc wrote

The only “bozo” here is the asshole that doesn’t stop for schoolchildren. You’re a shitty selfish driver, and I’m glad you’re going to lose your license.

Enjoy your walk!

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throwawayamd14 t1_jdhql94 wrote

The hazard lights come on before the sign comes out for buses, but as the sign is coming out you make no attempt to reduce your speed and try to stop and you pass through the stop sign without even reducing speed.

Also, as another commenter said in the legal advice forum (where you deleted the post), the car ahead of you DID come to a full stop. This implies that you were either traveling too fast or not paying attention

You state that the van was blocking you from seeing the bus but then at the same time you state the bus didn’t turn on their hazard lights.

How can you see that the hazard lights are NOT on if you can’t see the bus? You are being dishonest one way or the other

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MarmalAIDs OP t1_jdhs0ny wrote

My brake lights were on, I was braking. I started slowing as the result of the van before seeing the bus behind them. For all I know they couldve been turning without a turn signal before the bus was there

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throwawayamd14 t1_jdhsx02 wrote

Well if you couldn’t see the bus then why did you say the bus hazards weren’t on?

Also, you did not slow down. That is quite obvious in the video

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MarmalAIDs OP t1_jdhtzsi wrote

Slower than i was going from the obscures view behind the van, and my brake lights are on till I eventually passed the bus. I sure didnt slam on the breaks within the 1-2 meters from the front of the van as I couldnt even see what the van was stopping for. As posted below, I was a block away and saw the bus (should add the area before goes downhill slightly, and can see further ahead then when the road flattens out towars where the video takes place.)

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Aggravating_Foot_528 t1_jdiw987 wrote

Bottom line - it doesn't matter. You went through a bus stop sign and you got a ticket. If you go to court saying your vision was obscured then the court will just tell you that you were going too fast for the conditions.

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colormeslowly t1_jdhmoyu wrote

OK, from what I've found in the PA Driver's Manual pg 58:

"There is only one exception to the school bus stopping requirement. If you are

approaching a school bus that is stopped with its red lights flashing and stop

arm extended and you are driving on the opposite side of a divided highway,

(i.e. concrete/metal barriers, guide rails or trees/rocks/streams/grass median),

you do not have to stop. Reduce your speed and continue driving with caution."

Since this was not a divided highway, it appears you were ticketed correctly - however, if it gives you an opportunity to fight it, then do so. Appear before the judge and explain what happened - maybe "bonus points" if you're a parent.

ETA: Honestly, if they’re just giving you a fine, pay it.

If they’re going to suspend/points fight it. At least that’s what I would do.

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MarmalAIDs OP t1_jdhndfd wrote

Youve actually looked vs some of these bozos who just say take the ticket lol, i appriciate you. Sadly, while you are correct on this, I was hoping to see if the bus driver not following the law for what they need to do before the stop (hazarads on 150-300ft before the stop).

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pa_bourbon t1_jdkvr8s wrote

What proof do you have of that? Without a video, it’s your word (you have an incentive to lie here in the eyes of the judge) vs the bus video that shows you clearly failed to stop.

I don’t think you are going to get very far with your argument once the judge sees the video.

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SewSpooky t1_jdhkb3j wrote

Looks like you deserve a ticket to me.

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Peaceoorwar t1_jdhlfta wrote

you can't beat that ticket. Do they take points from your license? They don't know if you or someone else was actually driving.

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MarmalAIDs OP t1_jdhmqw2 wrote

I get what youre saying. The ticket said theyd need me to list someone if it wasnt me.

Yes 5 points and 60 days suspension is mandatory in PA from what Ive found

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111victories t1_jdhq6nh wrote

I’m pretty sure these automated tickets are just fines and not suspensions. Only if pulled over by an actual officer would the latter apply

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111victories t1_jdhqjhd wrote

Edit: you should Google the school district whose bus it is. They typically have more information on their website including whether it is just a fine or not. I’m down in Delco and I know that is the case in our SD. Have seen the cameras and now extra cautious (always was) around the busses. Eat the fine, it’s just money.

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MarmalAIDs OP t1_jdhr4ri wrote

Im in Delco too.

If it's certainly just the $300, then awesome. Thats like just a day or 2 of work, vs 2 months of no work via suspension lol.

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814lifechanging t1_jdhztqb wrote

Incorrect. My husband was at a 4 way stop, he turned right, bus was to his left going in the complete opposite direction and he got 5 points, 60 day license suspension. He tried to fight it and lost.

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111victories t1_jdi0ntm wrote

Was your husband ticketed by a bus camera? First time? According to my SD, “In Pennsylvania, a first-time stop-arm violation witnessed by a stop-arm enforcement carries a fine of $300 and no points.”

You’re incorrect.

https://www.rtmsd.org/Page/460

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814lifechanging t1_jdi195a wrote

Yes, bus camera, first time. He received a letter in the mail after the fact and went to traffic court. He is now currently suspended. Erie Pa. I'm not incorrect.

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111victories t1_jdi1hmz wrote

Can’t both be right.

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814lifechanging t1_jdi1m7b wrote

I guess but that's exactly what happened.

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111victories t1_jdi24nt wrote

Read the State Code:

A violation under this section shall not: (i) be deemed a criminal conviction; (ii) be made part of the operating record of the individual upon whom the penalty is imposed under section 1535 (relating to schedule of convictions and points); (iii) be the subject of merit rating for insurance purposes; or (iv) authorize imposition of surcharge points in the provision of motor vehicle insurance coverage.

https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=75&div=0&chpt=33&sctn=45&subsctn=1&mobile_choice=suppress

335.1(c)(4)(iv) is posted above. No points. Either your husband did it before (occam’s razor) or somehow the law is different in Erie. Or municipal error, I suppose

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814lifechanging t1_jdi3xyl wrote

Thanks for the info, I will look in to it. Maybe my husband has lied to me😄 certainly wouldn't be the first time.

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MarmalAIDs OP t1_jdic02u wrote

I called the number on my ticket.

Apparently, no points or insurance hikes from when it's a camera. If a police officer witnesses it or pulls you over, then it could be different. Maybe a police officer witnessed your husband but didn't pull him over.

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MarmalAIDs OP t1_jdi5gpr wrote

This was something Ive read on the back of my ticket. The wording of that felt confusing to me, like it looks like it says no points/suspension would happen, but then again that just doesnt...seem right lol like I HAVE to be reading it wrong to have title 1535 list the points, but my ticket says im not going to lose points.

EDIT: You're correct! No points or insurance hikes if its just a camera that catches you. It's different if police catch it happening.

This puts me at ease, you and 814lifechanging are good people.

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classy-mother-pupper t1_jdhnklg wrote

In Pennsylvania, it’s just the $300 fine if caught by camera. There’s no points or license suspension for a camera citation.

Edit to add source for the article I read. They don’t even report violations to penndot. here

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MarmalAIDs OP t1_jdhozaz wrote

Now THIS is a good post.

That news article says no points for camera tickets, but penndot says points for this on title 75 1535, but then again Ive never gotten a ticket before in this state from a camera, only one from a police officer for speeding once. Have you (or someone you know) gotten a camera ticket in state to know if Title 75 1535 applies?

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classy-mother-pupper t1_jdhr0u1 wrote

My sister in law did. Was just the fine. Penndot has not record of it. So insurance never when up either. I’d just pay it and move on. But would post over in r/legaladvice for peace of mind.

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throwawayamd14 t1_jdi0e55 wrote

In case anyone wondered even more about how dishonest the OP is:

He’s driving a 2019 Mazda 3 hatchback or newer it seems. In his original post, He claims he brakes, this is in fact a lie. His brake light is not on, it’s his fog light. At the 7,8,9 second light I can see the top his hatch, there’s a brake light there, if he was braking the light would be on but there’s clearly no light on at the top of his hatch

Op this jury finds you guilty and a shitty person

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MarmalAIDs OP t1_jdi1bb2 wrote

Wrong model year but thanks.

They are the brake lights if you look further into the video when the back brake lights go off when I let go of them. Youre full of shit on two counts my friend.

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throwawayamd14 t1_jdi1q8l wrote

All Mazda 3 hatchbacks have a brake light at the top of the hatch, so why isn’t your hatches’s brake light on if you are braking? They don’t “go off” you just drive out of view lol

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MarmalAIDs OP t1_jdi4fxl wrote

Looking at the front of the car, see how it dips and lowers speed similarly to the van that did make a full stop? Is the basis of slowing movement just off of one light from behind when ive passed the bus?

Youre right on the hatchlight position, just not the model year.

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Monster_depot311 t1_jdiof2s wrote

Here is the problem, a driver is responsible for what their vehicle does 100% of the time. Example: if you rear-end a car because they stopped abruptly, you can feel like oh well they jammed on their breaks for no reason it is their fault. The legal reality is you are at fault because you were following too closely to have the reaction time and breaking distance to not hit them. That's why people who TRY to get you to rear end them for the insurance money get away with it most of the time. It is an exploitation of the law but reality.

So let's apply that theory to your situation. Let's assume you are correct that the bus stops abruptly. The van somehow manages to stop but you go past causing you to violate the law saying drivers must stop for school busses. Legally you are presumed to be at fault for not stopping. So unless there is some way for you to PROVE that it would have been impossible for you to see then you are responsible for passing the bus with its lights on regardless of what the bus did. As it doesn't appear you have that evidence then you have no defense.

Side note from the video, the van doesn't appear to be stopping violently. The bus is definitely fully stopped. As an uninterested observer you appear to drive past the van and the bus without an attempt to stop. That video is very strong evidence against your claim. Even if you are telling the truth that you honestly didn't notice till it was too late, the magistrate will uphold the citation because a reasonable preponderance of the avaliable evidence suggests that you were either willfully passed or due to inattention passed the bus.

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David-El t1_jdmnnpr wrote

What is so funny about your example is that the OP did that too.

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Mrstucco t1_jdi63n5 wrote

IANAL, but I think the problem here is that it’s not just the stop sign that swings out.

The bus drivers activate yellow flashing lights as they approach a stop and red lights as they actually come to a stop.

I could see how the van might have obscured the stop sign, but the flashers over the windshield (and on the rear of the bus are visible from hundreds of yards away and should have given you ample warning to stop.

If you’re concerned about losing your license you might want to consult a lawyer (anyone who advertises that they handle DUIs will usually take traffic cases.)

I got a BS ticket years ago for 75 in a 40 mph work zone on the turnpike. It was the middle of the night, there was no work happening, half the signs said 55 mph and the other half said 40 mph and the trooper likely got a reading off the guy who blew past me and started fishtailing when he jammed on his brakes as he saw the cop. I was probably going 60-65.

That ticket (30+ over the limit) carried a two week suspension which I couldn’t afford. I paid a lawyer $500 and he pleaded it down to 50 in a 40 and failure to obey a traffic control device which was no points and like a $50 fine plus all of the bs court costs (judicial computerization fee, etc.)

If a two month suspension means you would lose your job, it’s probably worth the money. If you have a clean record a lawyer can probably negotiate something that would be easier on you and satisfy the state’s need to deter future violations.

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MarmalAIDs OP t1_jdi7i5w wrote

Youd be right if the bus HAD visible hazards on at hundreds of yards away, but the hazards werent on until somepoint between traveling closer to the van and as the ground flattened out. Between then and me passing the van and bus was roughly a block. The bus didnt have hazards for that time.

I like that the camera shows when the yellow lights are on, but im curious if this is the entire video too; if so, then the driver clearly only had hazards on for a couple feet from the stop. From my memory compared to this video, there wouldnt be much of a time difference, and they possibly passed a couple cars length of distance if somehow the lights turned on as soon as thr bus was out of view. I drive around buses plenty, they have their flashers on for a long distance before the stop.

Thank you for your thorough response!

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Aggravating_Foot_528 t1_jdivrgy wrote

If they have video of you passing a stopped bus then you passed a stopped bus.

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HappilyPartnered t1_jdjwkmb wrote

When you see a school bus, you should automatically think about stopping. That’s a lot of crap you wrote above.

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Logan_Holmes t1_jdhgylr wrote

Post the video

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MarmalAIDs OP t1_jdhidde wrote

Done

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Logan_Holmes t1_jdhk6sc wrote

I think it’s going to be hard to overturn. The bus comes to a complete stop and has its sign out for four seconds then you drive by. I don’t doubt the possibility of the van blocking your view of the bus, but I think any judge will tell you to be more careful around buses and to always be prepared for a stop

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throwawayamd14 t1_jdhrmuu wrote

If the van blocked his view of the bus then how did he see that the hazard lights were not on?

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MarmalAIDs OP t1_jdht82x wrote

I saw the bus going up the road about a block away, they didnt have hazards/stop sign on at the time. Whats not shown on video is how long the hazards have been on, which from my experience seeing the bus a block away with no lights before approaching closer to the stop means they only had their hazards on for potentially any of that time and distance. From the distance they may have traveled, it was under 150ft undoubtedly.

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throwawayamd14 t1_jdhtoo9 wrote

It is hard to believe any justification based on the bus driver’s actions because he provided enough warning for another car, which was a head of you and closer to the bus, to stop before the stop sign was even out. Honestly you definitely deserve this ticket

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MarmalAIDs OP t1_jdhuzoy wrote

Literally its the law for them to turn hazards on at 150-300 ft, which they didnt. That van pm slammed on their breaks

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throwawayamd14 t1_jdhvrsa wrote

You can tell this to a judge, but to a 3rd party observer it really seems that you are at fault here

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MarmalAIDs OP t1_jdhla82 wrote

The sign was still opening as I passed it. Regardless, the distance of 150-300ft is required of bus drivers on Penndots bus drivers manual, which is what im wondering would help here.

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whomp1970 t1_jdjdwjp wrote

So you didn't see the little stop sign.

Did you not see the giant yellow school bus, at a total stop, on a public road, in a travel lane? I see a stopped school bus, I instinctively slow down, especially if it's not in a parking lot, or on the shoulder.

Did you not see the red/yellow flashing lights on the very top of the school bus? Often, those come on before the bus even comes to a stop.

But I GET IT. You may have been a little distracted, and I can understand not seeing the little stop sign. And it's like, when you're approaching a stoplight and it turns yellow ... do you gun it or brake hard? And sometimes, you hit the brake and you could have made it through, and other times, you accidentally run a red light.

SO I GET IT. That's probably similar to what happened to you.

But I don't think the law will be that forgiving.

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InteligentTard t1_jdhh7z2 wrote

Regardless of outcome I would definitely fight it. The worst that can happen is you lose. The best, the judge dismisses it.

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Blaze987 t1_jdhlct9 wrote

I totally see how you could have plausibly missed the sign. It was still opening when you pass I bet it depends on judge and how you present. Definitely get a lawyer to at least see what they think.

I've always hated the rule about busses on 4 lane highways for this reason. I totally get one lane of opposite traffic, but when there's 35+ and 4 lanes, like this is just asking to get a kid hit.

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Aggravating_Foot_528 t1_jdiwggi wrote

Um, sometime kids need to cross a 4 lane road. It isn't the kid's fault.

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Blaze987 t1_jdj2s9e wrote

I'm not blaming the kid, I'm blaming whomever made the bus route and who thought putting in a 4 lane highway for residential. The bus should pick the kid up on the side they are on, not make them cross 4 lanes of highway...

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Aggravating_Foot_528 t1_jdj4iir wrote

people should stop for buses when required by law so kids can cross the street.

Cars aren't the only things using the roads. It only takes maybe 30 seconds for a kid to cross the street to get home. People can wait.

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_SundaeDriver t1_jdie09c wrote

Always fight the ticket. They can reduce the points and give you a break or you could get off on some technicality. 5 points will definitely raise your insurance and takes 2 years to get off your license.

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DocCarlson t1_jdhqtq1 wrote

I would plea not guilty and say obstruction of view based on the van blocking the bus, and then say that breaking abruptly would have caused a more dangerous problem. See how it goes

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delcodick t1_jdhidof wrote

Attorney time and attempt to suppress the evidence. Discovery of maintenance and source code. They won’t give up the source code

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