But if we play last, everyone will have left already....

*sigh*

Depending on the day of the week, the amount of bands on the lineup, and the crowd, the "headliner spot" doesn't necessarily always mean the last band to play.

If you've got 6 bands playing on a Tuesday night, and the show is starting at 7PM, the headliner should probably go on around 10PM because people aren't going to stay out past midnight on a Tuesday to catch a headnling act. So you might have to bump one of the support acts to the late night spot. Basically...whenever the headliner plays is the "headlining spot".

See that's the problem and I consider a huge issue and misconception in the scene.

If there is a headliner then they should play the final spot. If it's a Tuesday night then don't have as many bands on the event and have the "headliner" play last at 10pm. Why would supporting acts go last, that's just silly.

Lol I know that's what they say and it's ridiculous. If if they are the hEaDlIneR then people will stay for them.

Meh. We've had this happen more times than I can count, often it's been a blessing in disguise for us...

One bar in particular we're quite well received in seems to have a habit of giving "headliners" some doubts if they'll draw a crowd (it's an old biker bar in the midst of a pretty diverse city). Quite frankly, I think it's the steady stream of Black and non-white folks that come through the bar for a drink or food that make them think the venue isn't a good draw for their kind of tunes (we're punk/grunge/metal, so we generally play with bands at least similar in style and/or genre). So often they'll ask if we'd rather take the headlining spot. Which we're all about when it's offered.

Usually means going anywhere from a half hour to 45 minute set, to an hour and a half or two hours with an intermission. Generally speaking we love this, because we can just wing it as far as what we play to fill in the excess time, rather than have to go by our (usually) previously decided setlist. Nothing like being able to play more originals, interact with the crowd and not feel rushed, throw out cover options and let the crowd decide what we play, etc.

But it's sweetest when the original headliner plays their reduced set, yet hangs around a bit for ours and sees the place start coming alive and rocking around midnight. I've seen the look of regret more than once on a previously ordained "headliner's" face, and can't say I've ever felt the slightest bit of pity. We'll play any time, and make the most out of it, whether it's 6 people watching us or a filled-to-capacity venue. 🍻😎🤘

For what it's worth: as an audience member, I always assume the headliner is the closing act.

I feel the "it's been a blessing" because we don't mind headlining. The issue is: promoting the event with the expected lineup, and also the ego of a proclaimed "headliner" but them not headlining. If bands don't want to headline then work it out ahead of time.

^this

So then you get bumped and it takes those guys an extra 40 minutes to set up, then 20 to break down...leaving you with a 10 minute set at 1215 when last call is 1230.

That is, if they aren't providing the back line

"OH, well since we already played, we're just going to load the van at the end of our set. Hope you brought your own shit, we gotta go cause work in the morning sorry have a good show, let us know when you want to play again. Our friends all have to get home early, too, so have fun playing for the bartenders."

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Had this happen once. Show was slotted for 4 acts, and the the first two ran way over. Headliner asked to go on before us, and then everyone left when they finished their set.

My band went on around 12am and played to a room of about 4 people…

Headliner doesn't want to follow you. You're gonna set the bar to high for them to be better than you. They'd rather follow a mediocre act and shine...putting the heat on you to top them.

Headliner plays the best spot.

If you don't want to play the last spot, nether do they.

1. Please elaborate what the "best spot" is for a headliner.

2. Not sure for all bands but we love playing last, however we want to make sure we're promoting the lineup correctly.

3. It's unprofessional for a "headliner" to switch the lineup last minute.

>1. Please elaborate what the "best spot" is for a headliner.

When the most people are there. Realistically they should be done by midnight.

>2. Not sure for all bands but we love playing last, however we want to make sure we're promoting the lineup correctly.

Most do, but you start getting into midnight + start time it changes.

>3. It's unprofessional for a "headliner" to switch the lineup last minute.

Yes, but if you tell them it's a headline spot and they start at 1am, there can be some confusion.

>1. When the most people are there. Realistically they should be done by midnight.
>
>--> If people are leaving before the "headliner" plays then that band is not a "headliner".
>
>
>
>3. Yes, but if you tell them it's a headline spot and they start at 1am, there can be some confusion.
>
>--> Headliners do start at 1am. If the issue is shows run to late then there's an issue with show times.

Uh ok, so what band are you in? Never have I seen a headliner not play as the headliner. For low end events, you should be happy enough to even be there. And if you someone asks you to swap, you can always say no. So I don't see the actual problem here, unless you are forced to swap, and again just be happy you have a gig at all.

how many bands in total where playing?

Headliners get a big say in the show. If they’re local it’s one thing, if they’re touring, work with them on it. They’ll remember you for being supportive of how they want to do things, and it would suck to drive hundreds of miles to a city just to play to 10 people because they HAVE to play last at midnight or later. I know I wouldn’t be a big fan of that situation as a touring act

3. Each time.

Totally supportive of it if the lineup is discussed ahead of time and promoted as such.

oh, well then yeh i agree with you. if you play in the middle of 3 acts you are not the headliner. if people are leaving after the other sets, you dont have the pull you think you have. yikes.

Because “supporting acts” are just that, supporting acts. The venue wants a band to still play the last spot for the patrons that want to stay longer for drinks, etc. But the headliners get the spot that has the best turnout to the venue. A closing band is not always the headliner spot.

I have never attended an event where an actual headliner didn't play the closing spot.

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What city do you live in? It pretty common that a bar venue will structure it with doors at 7/7:30, an opener support 8pm- 9pm, headliner 9pm-10pm, and then closer support 10pm - 11pm. That way the headliner isn’t asking their fans to wait until 10pm, and through two sets, for their show to start. The closer in these gigs is there to keep the show going for fans and patrons that want to stay out until 11pm.

Seen plenty of gigs (especially at actually concert venues/halls and theaters as opposed to bars) where the headliner for sure plays last, but the bar venue structure is commonly what I stated above, and for good reason, because the whole point of the bar having music at their venue is to sell more drinks. And they sell more drinks when the band with the biggest draw gets the prime time slot, but they still have entertainment afterwards so people don’t just leave the bar after they see who they came for.

A friend of mine found himself and his band in that position. While he appreciated the vote of confidence, he would rather play earlier so more people would stick around and see their set.

>--> Headliners do start at 1am. If the issue is shows run to late then there's an issue with show times.

Unless your talking DIY/House shows, no venue or festival runs a headliner at 1am. Assuming you're talking about those, I don't blame the headliners to go on earlier, as one has never run on time in history.

Ill play devils advocate from the POV of a touring musician in my early 20s.

Bars like to keep the crowd for as long as they can, so bar sales can be higer. This becomes an issue when you are on a show with 4 other bands, 3 other bands, or 6 other bands. The crowd is always the BEST between 10 and 1145 at night. Usually the middle bands get the best all around crowd attendance due to people not wanting to stay till 1 am to watch a show.

We were the headling band, on tour, and would play at the end of the night around midnight...when half the crowd had already left. The local bands would have a great turn out to play for, and we would have a little less than half if lucky. This was mostly notable by the messages we would get about "man, i had to leave and bummed i didnt see you guys!"

We started stating in contract that we played no later than 11, and the big local band that was part of the deal could headline if they wanted, or a DJ could take over. Fixed a lot of our issues and our merch sales went up as a by product. So, while I can see it being weird if the headliner wants the better spot...ask the local band if they could put 750 people in a venue without the headliners name... if they say no, then maybe playing for less people isnt such a terrible thing, leaving the headliner to play for the crowd that showed up for them.

This is true for a tour or for a show with established artists. For local bands where no onne has more than a couple of demos recorded, "Headliner" just means who has more instagram followers, but all those people could be in a different city so it's irrelevant.

Oh man, you got band fucked.

​

I can't say how many times the "frontman" of one of my old bands would let bands do that, leaving us playing to the bartenders, then try to justify it by saying "well, they'll hit us back next time."

We never got "hit back." We wound up becoming the local "filler" band that looked good on the posters and always ended up playing to nobody, having to provide either the full backline or bring all of our own gear, and get pushed out of shows because of bullshit reasons. I got kicked out because I started telling the bands that were pushing us around "no, fuck you," in front of the guy in my band. I had shit to do, and I was done with the bullshit. Alas, I was just the horn in a ska/punk band, so I was deemed replaceable.

What qualifies you as a "headliner" as opposed to a "touring band who's coming through to play this event".

Edit: *?. This is a question.

Bands should be happy just to have a gig.

I mean, they should also have to do presale.

Yeah, make the bands bring the crowd to your shitty venue that doesn't have a built in set of regulars/normal business. Those fucking bands should do all the work.

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If the best spot isn't the one the headliner's booked for, then they're not really the headliner. People aren't coming to see the band, they're coming to hang out.

That’s a good question tbh. Our name was always the biggest on the flyer, our following online in comparison to the local bands was 10x, and in general it was just thought of as “these are the guys bringing the crowd”. The local bands were good and def helped bring in people, no doubt. But, it was always a bummer when we would see everyone lines up to get in, and our set would start at something crazy like 12:45 or 1. Half the crowd was gone by then, or drunk 😂

Here are the rules as I see them:

1. Small touring band gets middle slot from the locals as a courtesy. Hopefully it’s paid forward.
2. If it’s all local bands, whoever booked the show chooses the line up. Booking is such a fucking pain in the ass. If I email 15 venues over and over finding a night that works for them and I put a bill together emailing 50 bands to find the ones available and finding new ones after the first set inevitably flake you better bet your ass I reserve the right to take the middle of the night. Then again, I also use that as a bargaining chip when trying to book shows with bands above our weight. Or if another band becomes friends with us and I want to be cool to them.
3. Everyone agrees beforehand. No changes night of. That’s is, in the words of Santa/Crashmore, unprofessional bullshit.

For tiny bands, middle is almost unilaterally “best.” Everyone who came only for the opener is still there, those filtering in for the last band start showing up.

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This is the way

Been there many times over. This is the big problem with having mid-week shows with three or more bands, music starting at 8 or 9pm. Like seriously bar owner person, why not have happy hour shows? Most humans have to work.

What you said is all true.

I would like to point out the middle slot is the middle slot, not the headlining slot. Touring does not necessarily equal "headliner".

I've played hundreds of shows around Detroit, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, LA, and surrounding areas. When the "headliner" doesn't go last, it's a dick move. I've usually been a mid-act. I like playing mid. Lots of crowd cross-over. But if I'm booked to headline, I'm going to close. Sure, closing a small local show usually yields a weak crowd, but to be the biggest draw and torpedo another act by making them close after you... every scene I've been in knows that's a dick move.

Honestly, the only difference is if people showed up and stayed for the show.

Exactly

Where, please, may we hear your band online?

I don't understand how we are talking about the same things lol.

I would like to keep my reddit anonymity but thanks for asking.

Bingo! if your not that well known but your the headliner your better off to go on 2nd especially on a week nite before everyone leaves. After 11pm is not the best slot unless it’s a Friday or Saturday night show. If the crowd thins out as it gets later the club most likely will cut your set in half so they can go home even if there’s still a bunch of your fans waiting to see you. Play 2nd if your the headliner more people will end up seeing you. Playing to more people is what’s important if your looking to grow your audience.

Like to add once we released our first album all of it changed and people stayed to hear us no matter the time slot… people who buy your records that come to hear you live are serious fans and will not leave until your in your car and even then will follow you out onto the streets… playing your songs on their car stereos and wanting you to take notice. You gotta love their enthusiasm it’s what you work all those years for… Die hard fans are the best… it’s the ultimate compliment… it’s why you do it… they know every lyric and every note your gonna play Those fans are amazing they may never know how much they mean to you… a hard working band needs that enthusiasm… it’s priceless… it keeps you going.

They may have showed up for the much more known band, and had to leave because it got so late. Just my experience from touring almost 300 days a year for 5 years. Is what it is!

If they're not well known, they're not a headliner. If they're touring through but don't have a pull, they're not a headliner. Headliner is literally the final spot. Larger acts are known as headliners because they pull well and go last. Going 2nd is just going on 2nd.

Headliner "a performer or act that is the star attraction on a program and typically performs last".

Never have I ever been to an event where an actual headliner has not played the final spot..

All you people who are saying headliners can play in other spots don't understand what "headliner" truly means and are perpetuating the problem in the scene.

Don't use the word "headliner" lightly; sometimes there are no headliners at an event, just bands who are playing or touring through.

In theory headliners should go last but not always the case… especially in Smaller venues like clubs… my band closed for quite a few headliners… we had a decent local following in the Los Angeles area however the Meat Puppets, Agent Orange, Country Joe “Woodstock fame” (Give me a F give me a U…) and The Nails along with many other acts in my experience all wanted the middle spot… not at all unusual… in the case of the Nails they borrowed our Bass Amp because they blew out they’re own and then Blew ours as well and left us with no amp for our Bass player… they left early and we ended up using the PA system for a Bass Amp… they all chose the 2nd spot over going last. The Nails did follow through and they paid the cost to fix the amp very Decent guys from New York! They had a popular song on radio “88 Lines For 44 women” I hope I’m remembering that title correctly.

Start using the actual term "closer". Not all self-identifying bands are "headliners". If you play in the middle, you are not a headliner.. just a band who is playing in the middle. Either you are a true headliner or a closer.