Submitted by hiszpanskiinkwizytor t3_z68zez in MechanicalKeyboards
Cobertt t1_iy0aabs wrote
Reply to comment by hiszpanskiinkwizytor in Problem with group buys by hiszpanskiinkwizytor
But what your explaining isn’t sustainable for a niche hobby. You expect every group buy runner, that wants to run caps for example, to do the tooling and injection molding themselves? You’re going to be paying a grand a set because that’s a ridiculous idea. Every person that wants to run a keyboard needs a cnc machine and mill and the warehouse space? You’re going to be paying thousands for just a case? As a runner why would I pay more for American production, for example, when it’s more expensive, has just as many delays, and honestly isn’t any better in quality and often times worse in quality than Chinese manufacturing? Make no mistake I’m not defending gmk or any one else that has absurd delays, but in your perfect world I better be able to pick up a cnc machine for $1000 down the street and have some sort of universal income so that I can quit my job, sit in my garage and machine keyboard cases myself.
hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0ax5p wrote
That's exactly what I am saying, If the only thing you can provide as a GB host is an idea and a good will, then I am better off with other costly hobbies, that provide items with not only good quality, but also a basic quality of service.
1000 dollars for a CNC machine is not a lot if you are selling keyboards that each one of them cost 1k.
Cobertt t1_iy0b3si wrote
A cnc machine costs far far far more than that, it was an example of living in your perfect world that is completely unrealistic.
hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0bhd0 wrote
Let it cost 10x that. If you are selling 100 keyboards for the price of 1k USD, you can invest in that. Especially if you are as "big" as rama or zeal and you are planning to do GB in the future. That's how a normal manufacturing business works in real life.
Cobertt t1_iy0cabg wrote
See this is the big problem. People who have no idea what things cost are offering unrealistic solutions. I used cnc mill is about 25,000 and you’re not even talking raw material cost, or annodization vats or anything. Welcome to the real world. You can’t just make a business like that, especially if you aren’t born into money. RAMA is a horrible comparison because he had money before his keyboard business.
hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0d0qf wrote
I have a friend that has a laser CNC that costed WAY less than yours. Gives and amazing quality (not sure about efficiency so maybe you would need 5 of them for a GB). I am also taking raw materials cost under account and I do think that people are overpricing their GB keyboards heavily.
Even if your CNC costs 25k USD and it is only a fraction of you investment, when you sell 100 keyboards that cost 1000k USD, it's still a small cost. Not to mention it's an investment and if you really only want to do one group buy, just freaking sell it afterwards.
Cobertt t1_iy0dkva wrote
A laser cnc is not the same as a mill. A mill is required for making a keyboard case. A laser can cut plates and stuff, thin sheets.
How am is someone supposed to afford 25k for a mill pre group buy. I sure as hell am not spending 1k ona keyboard where the group buy runner says hey! I have idea for a keyboard here’s the render. I don’t know how to cnc but I’m going to buy a mill and annodization vats and learn how to do it. Oh and the board costs more than a keycult.
That’s how you encourage scammers.
Latlan t1_iy8tmv5 wrote
>That’s how you encourage scammers.
Yeah I wonder where clones came from. Something to do with GBs I recon. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0dzsg wrote
But that's what most group buys look like :DEven with big manufacturers like Zeal. They start GB without even having an idea how to make on or don't even have samples from manufacturers.
That's how I encourage scammers? WTF man, I literally am praying for the opposite...
Cobertt t1_iy0eb0f wrote
In what world? Switches get samples, the molds don’t change for gmk (I’d like to see pre group buy color matching), and the vast majority of boards probably like 95% get prototypes. So that’s not how group buys work.
hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0eta4 wrote
I don't think we understand each other.
sleepjack t1_iy0gvwg wrote
u/hiszpanskiinkwizytor you should take what Cobertt is saying to heart here.
It is absolutely unrealistic to ask a runner to have the capital to fund an entire manufacturing operation by themselves. If that were the case, then this hobby wouldn’t exist to begin with. Designers that are doing their best to keep everyone appraised of the group buy’s timeline aren’t your enemy here.
We should continue to hold companies like GMK, Keyreative, etc. accountable for poor communication and missing deadlines. But acting as though that is the fault of a good-faith runner is misplacing your frustration.
Best thing you can do is not join GB’s that use manufacturers/vendors with a problematic track record, and support those that respect their customers.
hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0hlyg wrote
Thanks for this comment.
I get you point that it may not be a runner's fault. Nevertheless, why is missing a deadline a rule? There are many runners that are doing a second or third GB and they still have the same problems.
Maybe some GB runner should speak up about their real profit? I wonder what is a percent of profit from an average group buy (I am sure we won't ever get an answer). I wonder if there is a space for improvement of a quality.
I bet no GB runner does it pro publico bono ;)
sleepjack t1_iy0k90r wrote
Again, deadlines being missed are almost always on the fault of the manufacturer.
Take GMK or example: their main revenue comes from commercial manufacturing, not this hobby. So their involvement in the custom keycap space is essentially that of a “side gig.” Their responsibility of upholding a groupbuy’s timeline is not a high priority of theirs. The ways in which they choose to neglect their obligation to their group buy customers isn’t a problem a runner has any control over.
As for why runners keep choosing to use problematic manufacturers is a whole other problem: the scarcity of manufacturers to begin with. There are only a handful, so the hobby at large is somewhat left to choose the lesser of two evils in a lot of cases.
Most importantly, running a group buy costs a huge investment of time and money, and it will be YEARS before you see any money made from it. While I don’t know the exact % of the profits that will go to the runner, I do think they should be compensated appropriately. Remember that most organizers are doing this on their own dime, and many don’t make it to production to begin with.
Cobertt t1_iy0jhkt wrote
Yeah I don’t know where you’re joining group buys that don’t do prototypes or have proof of concept like gmk’s history of caps. And if you join them that’s your own fault. You keep bringing up zeal but their switches all have samples and they prototype their stabilizers. So to be completely honest it sounds like you have no clue what you are talking about.
hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0jxj4 wrote
I do, and it sound like you like to take assumptions without a background.
I was attending Zeal's only keyboard GB - Xeno. It wasn't the only GB I was/am attending to and I won't take shit from a person that just can't understand that somebody can be pissed about something that he can cope with.
Cobertt t1_iy0kh7n wrote
Yeah but zeal had prototypes for the Xeno, and your directly arguing that this hobby doesn’t do that. So again my point stands. I’m not happy with delays either but currently there is no reasonable other option for extremely niche hobbies, and your solutions was impractical.
hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0ngn2 wrote
Excuse me, where did I state that prototypes matter? I only say that if you do prototypes and they don't meet your standards, it's on you and not on clients who attend GB. You should take the fuckup under account and add it to the deadline instead of being a hype boy that says everything will go perfectly fine.
Cobertt t1_iy0o05v wrote
When I said that if you ran it in your world no one would have protos before production because they’d have to use funds to buy the supplies and your response was that’s how it already is. I didn’t say be a hype boy either. You’re just frustrated that there isn’t a logical solution. Which is fair, but you’re digging a hole here.
hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0oqcd wrote
There is a logical solution and I stated it in my original post.
If you want a proto, do it on your own and then start a GB. Not the other way around.
Cobertt t1_iy0owzk wrote
That’s already how it’s done. You’re literally arguing against yourself at this point.
hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0p8hv wrote
Not how it went in GBs I was attending. You are just arguing for the sake of winning.
Cobertt t1_iy0plz3 wrote
What are you doing then because you haven’t made a good point yet? And like I said if you chose to buy something that had no proto, then that’s on you, don’t try and start some grand hate thread on group buys when you failed to do what might be the simplest part of buying into something, making sure the product actually exists or even could exist.
hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0pulm wrote
>when you failed to do what might be the simplest part of buying into something, making sure the product actually exists or even could exist.
Can you elaborate? English is not my main language and I think my skill surrendered here.
Cobertt t1_iy0q4bi wrote
You joined a group buy that had no prototype or proof of concept, which means the runner had no example in hand. This is usually a red flag and signals that you shouldn’t join the group buy. You chose to take that risk.
hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0qjam wrote
You are completely right, I give you that. I chosed poor group buys - Zeal's Xeno, first GMK Dots, first Massdrop x T0mb3ry GMK Carbon, etc.
Can you give me an example of runners that sticked to their deadlines?
Cobertt t1_iy0r0hy wrote
GMK generally doesn’t require prototypes because they already have the tooling. There aren’t very many through Covid, but that’s at no fault of the runners, pre Covid there definitely were GBs that stuck to their deadlines and estimates.
hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0rtt9 wrote
I will ask again, can you give me examples of runners that kept their deadlines?
From my experience, GMK group buys don't stick to their deadlines. I don't know if it's the manufacturer's fault or the runners but I blame the runner in the end because I am not buying keycaps from GMK. I buy them from the runner.
Cobertt t1_iy0s9gp wrote
I’m not going through 10 years of GH posts. You’re buying them from a runner knowing they are at the mercy of GMK lead times. How are you going to blame the runner when GMK changes the deliverable time. That’s not the runners fault. You’re holding runners accountable for manufacturers short comings. It’s unreasonable.
hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0tiln wrote
I am not buying keycaps from GMK, do you understand that? :D I would bother GMK about not sending me my keycaps if I bought it from them.
> I’m not going through 10 years of GH posts.
You just admitted that you don't have any example on any input in this conversation any more. Thank you for the involvement.
Cobertt t1_iy0u2g0 wrote
No you are buying understanding that the delivery of them is dependent on GMK’s ability to produce them. It’s an understood part of the hobby. Look at this link for a current gmk group buy. https://mechsandco.com/products/gb-gmk-beige-addon-extension
It states you understand that shipping is an estimate and can be extended. This is what you agree to when purchasing. There is even a whole section on group buys.
hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0u9z7 wrote
What's the point of giving a deadline then?
Cobertt t1_iy0ud61 wrote
They give estimates not deadlines. You’re taking an estimate and applying the term deadline to it.
hiszpanskiinkwizytor OP t1_iy0vbv2 wrote
How much further is it ok to go from an estimate? Is one week ok? A month? A year? Or as experienced over two years?
Cobertt t1_iy0vkbi wrote
That’s not my place to say. Obviously any delay is unacceptable for you, so you should stick to instock buys from now on. I’m fine waiting until the product is done right given that I get clear communication throughout the process.
ThereminGoat t1_iy3t05i wrote
The molds for a single part of a switch, not the whole switch, is on a different order of magnitude of cost than you've identified here for an entire CNC machine. And for the record, I don't even make switches.
I would suggest some serious research into this topic before claiming you can fix a community that has managed this way for more than a decade now.
Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments