What happened before it died?

NOOOO!!! Did you accidentally ground out against the case or something?

Yeap. :( Just sat down and touched the side of the keyboard and zap.

Was just doing stuff around the house, then came back into the office and sat down. Touched the keyboard and got a zap. It immediately went out and the USB disconnect sound came from the computer. I unplugged it and waited a few minutes, then plugged it back in. Now no LEDs and the 7, Y, H, N column is out. Should've ordered a spare PCB.

Yup that sounds like an ESD shock. Sorry to hear that. I'd at least try reaching out to the vendor if I was you.

A moment of silence 🫡

Yeah, think I will, to see if they have any leftover PCBs I could purchase to replace. This is like getting a mark on your new shoes when you were a kid on the first day you wore them.

Have you tried to see if they will cover it under warranty? Who did you purchase from? This is such a well regarded board, it's shocking! *pun intended

I'm having this same shocking experience as we speak. Is there something to do to fix it?

As far as I know only option is to replace PCB.

I don’t know if it would be covered. I did email them to see if they have anymore PCBs to purchase. Otherwise I’ll have to check mechmarket. Or just sell it and get out of this crazy hobby.

Sorry, what I meant to say is that the shocking part happened to me, but didn't kill my PCB. Any precautions I can take to avoid this outcome?

You can put a layer of something underneath on the bottom case under the pcb to stop the pcb from touching the metal

Oh, got it. I know that a humidifier inside can help reduce static charge build up. I don't know if some keyboards are more prone to it than others, or if there is something you could do inside to help protect it. I know some PCBs including the one for the Space65 are supposed to have ESD protection. I was using a V2 Odin prior to this one and never had the shock problem.

Awwwww man. Don't let it discourage you too much. If anything just use it as some great learning :

1. Depending on the outcome with warranty and/or replacement parts you'll learn a lot about that company's ethics, customer care, etc.
2. Metal cases have some risk of ESD

how is ESD normally triggered? I always just touch my keyboard without thinking about this risk.

Did you use any of the case foam?

Yes, I used all of it during assembly.

Usually by like rubbing your hand against fabric or something along the lines of that

wow a board of that type of cost and it has no ESD protection? that just blows my mind.... that would almost certainly never happen on a non custom keyboard. so how could they think its acceptable to allow it to even be a possibility on that. i would be so pissed off iof this happened to me, esp since i have so many keebs that have cost me 1k plus to build...i wonder why it being plugged into the usb c cable wouldnt prevent this from happening since its grounded is it not

You can touch a heating radiator or water pipe to discharge yourself before you sit at the desk.

i would reccomend you use a humidifier or use a fabric spray and dillute it a bunch with water, and spray that onto your carpet to help prevent so much charge building up for the future, but most keyboards do have certain types os essential ESD protection, but your charge must have been a big one for that to not have prevented it maybe

Well.... that's one board to avoid then. No ESD protection at that price is criminal. I can understand how it's possible to zap a PCB when it's out of the case and on the bench, but for this to happen is awful.

Yeah, I don’t know why it was so sensitive. I wonder if I made a mistake during assembly.

yeah im not sure thats super weird because isnt it isolation gasket moutn also? is the usb port touching the case or something maybe?

The port has a little opening where it exits and probably does have a connection to the case. But otherwise as you said it is isolated from the case.

Did you put the sheet under your pcb on the middle case layer? That should prevent esd from pcb hitting the case. The pcb also has esd protection so idk how you fried her :( must’ve been a serious shock

I have the Space 65 CV since GB. No side LED but damn i have messed around with that pcb with soldering and resoldering etc no issues.

Crazy bad luck

Did you use the ESD protective film that they specifically included to prevent this?

My R3 hasn't had any issues so far but that's super unlucky dude

This may be an ignorant question, but do any custom keyboards come with a warranty? I would've thought that would only be applicable with large manufacturers. Local consumer protection law would still apply of course.

What deskmat is that ?

Yes many do come with warranty to basic components (at least). I think the GMMK Pro has a 2 year warranty?

Pretty sure this board has some kind of ESD protection built in, it uses an ARM processor.

Did you use the very bottom thin insulation sheet? How quality is that cable you are using? The cable could possibly be the cause, if it's not grounded properly.

You could try reflashing the firmware (White caps LED: VIA version, VIAL Version, Red caps LED: VIA Version, VIAL Version) too, if the board is responding at all (which it seems it very well may be), this could recover it.

However, even with the money I spent on this board and others, I always buy at least 1 spare PCB.

gmmk pro is a large manufacturer. It's not "custom" per se.

Didn’t R2 have the same issue? I’m surprised they haven’t addressed it for R3.

Same thing just happened to me twice on my frog tkl. Fried 2 PCBs in 3 weeks, I don't really know what to do at this point

>wow a board of that type of cost and it has no ESD protection? that just blows my mind....

You should check your facts before making wrong statements and absurd accusations suggesting the makers intentionally made this possible.

Answering your next question: the so called "ESD protection" does not guarantee total immunity and number of factors may contribute to such incident. No - I am not able to investigate this remotely and this is why I would restrain from making silly conclusions.

Swap out the MCU. If you don't have the tools ask around for a local hacker space.

What part of the world are you in?

Instead of just asking to buy PCB you should explain the situation and see what they propose.

This is pretty irrelevant to this topic. You are talking about preventing unintentional shorting of the PCB in badly designed board - nothing to do with ESD risk.

Again, isolating the PCB from case is different subject and in regards to ESD PCB's ground line actually needs to be connected firmly to case.

[removed]

There are replacement pcbs on taobao if you’re not able to buy one from them. You’ll need a forwarder to get it.

https://m.tb.cn/h.UhvUbvp?tk=hvmCdc1Yt3Z

Have you tried reflashing the pcb in case your firmware was corrupted?

I always here these stories but I have never had a static shock in years. I wonder what causes people to have static, I wonder if it’s the material clothe you wear.

It’s literally been a decade since I has static shock.

Doesn't it have to be a direct contact with the PCB for that to happen? I always rub my hand on my sweater or a piece of cleaning cloth laying on my table and touch the keyboard after but nothing abnormal ever happened.

It depends on tons of factors. Rubbing fabric against fabric or plastic is a common one at home, but if you live in a humid climate it's basically a non-issue (data centers maintain a specific humidity for this exact reason). If only part of your floor is carpeted and you walk barefoot you'll also naturally discharge any static electricity, or if you regularly touch large conductors (large metal parts of furniture, faucets).

I live in the UK so I guess I do have high humidity? We are always carpeted and barefoot, I guess the humidity just keeps the static away. I am 82% humidity today I guess that is pretty high

R2 has the exact same issue. My side leds have fried multiple times so now I dont even bother replacing them. Its a design flaw, no other board behaves like this and I have like 10 others.

Well, buy another keyboard

This is a new thing to me too cause I have been buying custom keyboards for 8+ years and never been zapped or had a PCB fried

Sorry to hear that man!

From what I read this is an issue from R2, and continues to be here in R3, really RIDICULOUS for a board of this price to be this bad

You could probably sell the case and take the loss this time, then buy something else

You're basically safe at 40%+

They include film? I thought PCB makers just built it in?

I suppose you could line a case with something.

Yeah, apparently this ESD issue has been recurring with the space boards. I found out months ago only by visiting their discord server and seeing people's similar experiences when I used to want one.

Does this apply to other graystudio keyboards?

They have ESD protection in both the board processor and an antistatic film in between the case and the pcb.

If they had it in the processor wouldn’t this not have happened? I thought the film specifically protected non-protected processors

I'm not OP but this was a really helpful comment as I was beating myself up about not having gotten a spare pcb for myself during the GB. thanks!!

What mousepad do you have?

Probably because it shouldn’t be a risk on a reasonably well built consumer electronic.

I’m sorry, you’re defending the keyboard maker for selling products that can’t survive static electricity why?

It’s ESD protection not immunity. A large enough shock to any electrical component will cause damage.

No they don’t. This is entirely a manufacturing problem.

https://www.ti.com/lit/sszb130

Sorry for your loss OP but it's incredibly funny that a $500 keyboard has problems that even $30 keyboards off Amazon don't have.

He probably bought one too.

No silly, maybe read my comment again and again before typing nonsense.

FYI: I am only opposing false statements about facts and coming up with absurd conclusions - all clearly made by wannabe experts. It has nothing to do with this maker.

>products that can’t survive static electricity

And you just done the same! Congratulations!

You all can downvote as much as you like - you still not qualified to make this judgement about the product or maker.

Tip: read comments below about very similar incident with completely different board from different maker - only total ignorant goes instantly to exclusively blame product or maker.

There's numerous people reporting the same problem. Just by having an ARM CPU doesn't make it immune. You still have to provide ESD and surge protection circuitry on all data, power and ground nets of the PCB. It sounds like it was either designed incorrectly, or skipped all together.

You're probably just another sheep.

What does that even mean??? lmfaoooo

Google internet sheep to educate yourself ;)

wow i've been blue pilled all along...i will now take the red pill

Finally a voice of reason.

You are most likely describing different issue.

There's numerous people reporting the same problem with pretty much any other board...

While all your "keeb build stream gurus" still showing you to handle PCB's w/o any precautions... but of course whole community jumps onto maker...

Yes, between the middle case structure they have a thin black esd protection film that is included.

Nice, now can you write a few more paragraphs on why an expensive custom keyboard susceptible to ESD by touching the key caps is anyone’s fault but the manufacturer?

Yeah this is wild. A device that's designed to be touched should never have this sort of issue. The big companies can make a $15 board that survives almost anything - an expensive board should be safe.

Not really, because when I static shock my space65 it also makes a disconnect/reconnect noise. Esd must be working well enough not to fry the pcb but the leds always go out and need replacement. I wouldnt be surprised if my pcb dies on me.

….How else do you think they shocked the pcb in the first place? They touched the metal case, which discharged to the pcb. The only way that could have happened was the pcb was touching the case.

Again you are talking rubbish.

You have no authority to judge this wasn't caused by anything else but "touching the key caps", because you weren't there, you have no info how OP build this board, how his setup is grounded etc etc... I have no time to talk about many other factors involved.

Any consumer electronic device is susceptible to ESD damage in some circumstances regardless of best efforts from the maker.

Your expectation based on "expensive custom" is just hilarious since high price has nothing to do with any extra ESD prevention.

Some part of the PCB/electronics is touching the case and then the static discharge from wearing socks on carpet or whatever discharges when you touch the case.

Because you have ONE similar aspect with yours you think you can decide this is exactly the same scenario? Wrong!

You can find (in this subreddit) multiple examples of various incidents with totally different board / maker and the same "disconnect/reconnect noise".

It does NOT make it "exact same issue".

Good job, so how long have you worked for them?

Not necessarily for just space boards, but is getting a spare pcb with group buys generally recommended? I might be participating in my first soon so I want to know if there's any recommendations for approaching group buys

I hope they see this and give you a free defective keyboard bro

Ofcourse I can, iv seen MANY space65 boards have static shock and esd issues including my own. ESD works until it doesnt and in OPs case ESD failed to prevent damage. Go on their discord server and simply search static shock theres someone asking for help bi-weekly. I havent faced any issues with Geon, Gok, Bitmap, Aeboards, Jackystudios, Owlabs, Smith n Rune pcbs and im active in those servers. Does static shock affect anything electronic on this earth? Absolutely.

Esd is a weak point for space65.

Lol, no there aren’t. This is not normal. Nor is your white knighting a company making expensive defective keyboards.

Sorry dude, I have no time to teach you basics of electronics but:

Correctly designed keyboard (and frankly any other device in metal case) will have it's PCB ground line firmly connected to the case for multiple reasons (ESD included).

Of course some customs have a flaw when other contacts of the PCB may touch the case and this needs to be prevented but not because of ESD risk but simply just to avoid shorting circuits.

Afaik, it was designed with it. There's MANY others that apparently don't have this issue, like myself. I have 2 PCBs from them. It's cold af where I am right now. Dry air, carpeted room. ESD heaven. No issues so far. I'm not saying ESD didn't kill theirs, but there's no widespread issue. Defective parts happen.

Yeah, makes me question why I’m spending the money. Need to find a new hobby.

Yes I used the thin film and the foam.

>ESD works until it doesnt

This applies to... every single electronic device on the planet :)

And I read about ESD damage on pretty much all Discord keeb channels...

I would rather blame "keeb build stream gurus" for showing you to handle PCBs w/o any ESD precautions.... consequences do not have to show up immediately. 3 decades of electronics repairs would teach you that.

Of course I will not dismiss the possibility that this line of boards may be more venerable, but this requires professional examination not just your impressions.

It’s not necessarily recommended, but it’s not a bad idea. Like anything else, over time it could start developing issues that aren’t easily remedied so having a spare PCB would be nice in those situations. Especially if it’s a keyboard that doesn’t use readily available PCBs.

Always always always order a spare PCB. It’s sad that the stock pcb doesn’t have ESD protection, tho.

They are - do some search .

Never said this is normal. Those incidents are surely not normal occurrence, but Jumping to conclusion without professional investigation just proves your ignorance. No pro will make such conclusion just because "numerous people" managed to damage their boards.

And this has nothing to do with the maker - the typical childish mantra of accusing me to somehow covering for the company just disqualifies you from further conversation.

No, didn’t think to do that, but not sure how with this board.

You dont need professional examination or 3 decades of electronics repairs to see if one board has more esd/static shock issues than another. Like I said, owners of space65 are more vocal about these problems than any other channel iv been in and its not by chance.

Yes I remember reading about that with one of the previous versions but thought it was fixed.

I’d never bought a spare before but now I see the wisdom in it!

Oh that’s great, thanks. Don’t have a forwarder and can’t read their site so will have to dig into this more.

Yeah I’d heard that with their previous boards but was hoping they’d fixed it. Guess not. :(

at least it's not a scuff on the case though, essentially you just got the shoes dirty and you can just clean them but if it was a scuff you frayed the laces

Thanks for the info and I will try that. I did use all the sheets and foam. The cable is an Anker cable.

Yeah I’m hoping it was just bad luck because I love the board and hope I can fix it or get a new PCB (hopefully without this issue).

Yeah I’ve been thinking of doing exactly that. Just kills me cause I love the board otherwise. Ugh.

Yes I did use all the layers.

It’s the Novelkeys collab with Random Frank P.

Cool

It’s the Novelkeys collab with Random Frank P.

Yeah that’s true. Long as I don’t shock it again. So many others saying this is still a problem with this new version of the board makes me worry that even if I replace the PCB it will happen again.

Yep learned my lesson.

Paragraph after paragraph of you defending a keyboard maker’s products dying from ESD by touching the keycaps is hilarious, please keep going!

Take a picture of the ESD protection ICs on the data lines going from the switch rows and columns to the MCU.

>You dont need professional examination... to see if one board has more esd/static shock issues

You still don't see the difference between number of occurrences and the actual cause of them.

>owners of space65 are more vocal about these problems...

Obviously more people will whine about Space65 going wrong than... Razor - here lies your unprofessional perception of "more"

Like I said - this is not to dismiss the possibility this PCB is more vulnerable but this not mean it is flawed by wrong design.

My final argument is that 99% of you handle PCBs without any ESD precautions potentially compromising ESD protection and the consequences may not be immediate.

In professional approach this alone disqualifies any afterward claim against the product / maker.

I think you put your comment in wrong thread.

Good job, you disqualified yourself from further discussion by pulling most absurd calling card.

You can argue all you want. If product A has more complaints about X than product B has about X then product A has a bigger X problem. People will always leave reviews or comments when they are facing issues with a purchase. They arent on the floor rubbing themselves on a carpet while building a board man. Why would people whine less for Razor though? How many times do you go on on Amazon and compare 2 items only to choose the one with the least amount of reported problems, even though both seem to have it?

Me: I built mine with a foot on metal the whole time.

Dunno how grounding works, but I always touch another metal object. Then the metal legs of my table

So you’re defending the defective keyboard for free? Are you ok?

So this space65 is an expensive keyboard with cheap pcb or something?

Not just cheap, but missing basic ESD protection components. It’s a PCB built by someone who knows nothing about electronics, sold as a high-end electronic.

NO single maker in the word of electronics can prevent you from zapping the PCB.

Also because all your "keeb build stream gurus" still showing you to handle PCBs without ANY ESD precautions, you think this is the correct way to assembly electronics.

The bad consequences do not necessarily exhibit themself immediately giving you impresion about product quality and never your own wrongdoing during assembly or re-build.

In one hand this alone should void any warranty claim afterwards (in my opinion) but...

In other hand this should be on to makers/vendors to:

• Issue clear ESD precaution disclaimer with any PCB.
• Request the content creators promoting those boards to practice and educate ESD precautions to the community.
  (there is clearly a commercial opportunity to create trend of fancy coiled ESD cables with aviators and colour matched wrist straps ;-)

The fact that most of boards do not die is not a proof they are any more resilient to ESD.

This is only intended to educate yourself from someone who over several decades professionally dealt with hundreds if not thousands of various electronic products that have been damaged by ESD.

The conclusion I have from this experience is that no consumer device is immune from ESD, there is no 100% protection against it, and you can only improve your chances by observing precautions.

In case of the PCB failure you should talk with your vendor before launching negative campaign online - that is just my personal approach I find to be most sensible (and a reason for my unpopular comments against instant lynching of the maker).

Thanks

>They arent on the floor rubbing themselves on a carpet while building a board man.

They not assembling them correctly either. Please educate yourself with any basic electronic assembly good practice guidelines and it will surely include strong wording about ESD precautions way above not rubbing on the carpet.

The rest are questionably acquired statistics.

Scary. I just receive mine but I have not build it yet. U bought an extra PCB just in case, however I read there's EDD protection built in. Reach to Grey Studios for support

Lol ok mate sure whatever you say!

ESD concerns apply to any/all products with a PCB. Consoles, computers, keyboards, etc.

>...the stock pcb doesn’t have ESD protection

According to the GB page it does have it on both boards.

Nope, it's the correct one. It was rhetorical and you totally didn't get it. ;)

Because it makes no sense not relevance whatsoever.

I've always been curious about this. I get static shocks from doorhandles and my cardoors all the time, but have never ever gotten a shock from any of my keyboards. Maybe I've been lucky

Yeah. I understand that. But does graystudios(company of space65) other keyboards pcbs have this issue. Etc space80.

In other words, should one only be concerned with the space65 or other boards under their name

I didn’t know I was “launching a negative campaign” by posting about my problem here. I thought it was just my bad luck. But others have apparently had the same problem with this board. I’d say that’s a relevant discussion to have in a mechanical keyboard community.

I didn't meant you but those instantly calling the maker "criminal" for something that wasn't true. Maybe this last sentence wasn't best worded.

I agree this is relevant discussion, this is why I'm in it.

[deleted]

It's amazing over the history of the hobby, how many high-end boards have poor ESD survivability and you have vendors like KBDFANs which IMO have really robust anti-ESD designs. I remember the Rama M65-A, holy smokes, that board was just instant fried and it was a $500 board with no after-market PCBs.

I saw some talk on the discord that a major ESD will probably kill the LEDs but the rest of the board should come back by flashing firmware again.

What you can do is download qmk toolbox, and grab the binaries/hex files from the graystudio space65 r3 discord channel. They have instructions there for flashing. If you've never done this before look it up on youtube or feel free to DM me and I'll give you a hand.

https://discord.com/channels/503768726332506133/925889387236065330/1039349180621140070

Back in the day, KBD75 from kbdfans had an issue with ESD. Luckily mine would just shut off and would work if I plugged it back in. What I did eventually was take all the mouting screws off and isolate the PCB from the case with electrical tape. When its closed and sandwiched in, it doesn't really need the mounting screws at all.

Now they coat their PCBs in some sort of blackness to prevent this.

so what I'm saying is, maybe if you get a new pcb from them, maybe try isolating the pcb from all metal contact. Hopefully they fix their design. They obviously knew it was a thing if they included the ESD protection as stock.

I've had ESD trigged by my dog rubbing against my leg. Happens more often in a dry environment. Some people say to use humidifiers to stop it.

Sounds like pretty awful engineering.

I would static shock my Drop Alt all the time; It still kept going.

Let me know if it works to resolve the issue or not. Based on your other comment, it sounds more like the firmware on it became corrupted instead of killing the board. Good chance a reflash can resolve at least the keys not working.

You can get esd mats but the bracket is annoying. Never used then after my 2nd year of work switching to pure software.

Thanks for the tip. I will try that if I get another PCB.

im curious where the pcb is in direct contact with the case. maybe you’re bottoming out too much with sock gaskets

Yes, I'm going to be examining closely when I take it apart.

What is ESD and should I be cautious for my keyboard as well ??

It's the ground of the PCB tied to the external metal where you zapped?

If it did whilst closed up it sounds like possibly poor design.

Means electrostatic discharge. So when static electricity builds up on you and you get a shock when you touch the door handle or a light switch. I've gotten zapped when touching a keyboard in the past but never had this happen where it was damaged.

Direct contact? Yes for plastic cases and such

For metal cases? Easily sparks can jump from case to PCB or even for metal plates sparks can jump right to the PCB

An antistatic film is quite the patch instead of a real fix The board processor having ESD protection is definitely not enough from my experience There should atleast be a good number of ESD suppression diodes scattered around the board as well as some sort of grounding which from my knowledge is pretty much missing.

> I am 82% humidity today I guess that is pretty high

Yeah - it's mostly a problem under 40% humidity

Anything over 60% and the air itself becomes quite conductive — enough to release any charge that builds up just by having your skin touch the air. Nearly impossible to generate an ESD over 60%.

Thanks for the link and direction. I was able to flash the firmware but unfortunately it did not work to fix the LEDs or the column that is out. :(

Oof, sorry to hear that. I hope they'll send you another board. Wish they'd keep a store open and put their stuff up for sale instead of group buys

Okay, so I did a bit of research and this keeb does indeed have ESD protection.

Here is a shot of the PCb where the protection IC is located: https://i.ibb.co/7KQQ7gZ/IMG-5526.jpg

In that shot, you can see the JST connector and to it's right, a small IC labeled UL26. That IC is the ESD protection. Here is it's datasheet: https://www.st.com/resource/en/datasheet/usblc6-2.pdf

Here is a shot of the daughterboard: https://i.ibb.co/2vnQqjJ/IMG-5516.jpg

As you can see, there is no UL26 located on the daughterboard. There is a part labeled A7 that appears to be grounded (?) to the case via the db's screwhole. I also speculate that the USB hole in the case is too tight and perhaps the USB connector is hitting the case and that's how the ESD is making it through. The main PCB should be well isolated with the gaskets in use as well as the thin isolation sheet in the case.

Perhaps the fault is with the data lines? Doesn't seem to be much if any protection on those lines and maybe that's how ESD is affecting these boards... but I honestly don't know enough about this and I am just hoping that what I provided can offer some insight into the situation.

The "warranty" is unwritten on the site.

So, the best thing that the OP could do would be to shoot out an e-mail on how their board died from ESD. Probably they can consider sending a PCB or something.

... so... basically what the person above said is one of the many to discharge the electricity first?

Vega from ai03 for example... Kinda shocks all the time (???) but never died at all. Well, not a zap, more like a buzzing when I touch the case.

Also Kei (Monokei), Noah (Matrix Lab), Neo87 (CherryB Studio), and U80-B (Rama). They all metal but it's very rare to see someone complaining of their PCB dying. Either it's rare or just "untold."

Nope, in this case, aluminum (it's metal) case boards have a risk for ESD.

In my case, I'll feel buzzy when I'm touching my Vega when I'm not grounded. Makes me think that the board was "susceptible" to ESD. Even though it never broken once on me.

More metal, more risk to conduct static discharge. Even then, I don't think it's accurate to just say "swap to polycarbonate or plastic case" to simply alleviate the issue.

Then again, I am no electrical engineer. Probably helps a little that I have little to no carpet flooring at my current residence plus the wood flooring probably helped.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say and who you mean by "person above" but if you wish to take extra precautions just touch PC case (assuming it is properly grounded) or elsewhere.

Wearing socks on carpet is usually what builds up the biggest charge for me, but you can get static electricity build up from pretty much every daily activity. Then it's just touching something or arcing with something that is conductive.

Just to follow up, I did reflash the board but didn't fix the problem. I e-mailed Graystudio and they are supposed to be sending me a new PCB.

That sucks, hopefully the new PCB works out!