You’re planning on paying for a full time daycare spot just to cover the mornings before pre-K? That doesn’t make any sense and would be a huge waste of money. You change your work schedule around or find a babysitter for the AM.

$15/ hr x 4 hours in the AM is $300 a week, that's more expensive than a full time spot. Good luck finding someone for cheaper 5 days a week.

Changing work schedules is not an option as an educator.

Thanks for the help 🙄

There’s a 4 hour gap in the morning? How short is the pre-K day?

Most Pre-K is only ~3 hours a day. 8:30 - 11:20 or 12:30 - 3:15.

You realistically need a $150,000 household income to have kids in Southern Maine unless you have retired parents that can assist and/or bought a house before housing prices more than doubled over the last decade.

That is a massively inflated price. I have kids and have lived in more expensive areas than here. It's not always easy, but it is in no way needing over double the average US household income to have kids in Maine.

It really isn't. Try to have kids and buy a house in Southern Maine in the 2020s. You can do it with less but you'll either be house poor, not saving for retirement, and/or not have any expendable income.

Renting is a thing, making some sacrifices is a thing, not living in the perfect house in the most desirable area is a thing. If I can afford children in Seattle on a much lower household income then it can be done in much more affordable Maine.

The most expensive part of a kid is daycare. It doesn't last all that long year wise. Sure it'll eat into your disposable income but having kids involves sacrifices. It's the same as I can't go out to the bars on the weekend because I have to be a parent.

What's the average rent for 2 and 3 bedroom apartments in Cumberland county? Can you even find a house for under $250,000 in the area? With today's mortgage rates, a $200,000 mortgage, assuming no PMI, will cost as much as a $325,000 ($400,000+ house) mortgage cost in 2020. I really don't think you grasp how much things have changed in the last 10 years. We bought our first house in Portland for under $125,000 when interest rates were just over 3%. Our mortgage was $400. It was a 3/1 that was well over 100 years old. That same house today would cost $350,000 which would be an $1800+ mortgage without PMI. The rent would likely be $2500/mo. It's pretty much the same story all over Cumberland county. How is a family just starting out, that has no equity and has student loans, supposed to make that work - especially if they don't have family nearby that can help with childcare?

Do you think I found a house in Seattle for under 250,000 no PMI? My mortgage was $1500 a month and we made about 78k as a household. It's absolutely doable. I did this in the past ten years in a more expensive city. I am very aware of how it goes.

You set all these expectations off the bag to try and make it impossible. You can have PMI on your home, it doesn't add much. Trying to buy right this second at the height of interest rates is frankly a bad idea. But these rates are a relatively new problem and probably not a permanent problem. Now is the time to be saving up money for a down payment not looking for a home.

You are right, you aren't getting a $400 a month mortgage anymore. But to set that as a necessary expectation is insane and completely unnecessary. I've owned two homes and some property and never had my monthly payment been that low.

Here are some real numbers I have. Let's start at a net of $5,423. This is after health insurance and contributing to retirement. Let's go higher than you listed and say your mortgage is $2,000 a month and let's split the subsidized daycare difference at around $1,000 a month for daycare. You are now sitting at $2,423 leftover. When I had student loans in my household we paid $300 a month. $400 a month food budget for the family. (Again these are all real numbers.) Now you have $1,723 leftover for utilities, random bills and fun.

$1,723 is a completely reasonable leftover money. As long as you aren't living beyond your means you are fine. Put some into savings for a rainy day, If you have a car payment (that you didn't go overboard on) you can easily afford it. Your once a year insurances will eat most of one months extra but you should be prepared for that. Your expenses could even be higher and you would still be doing fine. These numbers also get better if you have family thst can help with daycare, or if you can change schedules around to have a parent available to watch the kid. But at worst you just wait a few years and it's over. It's not a permanent situation.

That is what you would have on a household Income of around $85k. About half what you say is a completely necessary to have kids. The trick is you have to live within your means. It would be great to have more money, but it isn't impossible to be comfortable with children while making far less. I don't get why people feel the need to throw out such unreasonable numbers for things.

My wife and I leave the house at 630. Hence the 4 hours. If this guy thought it was working a typical 9-5 he might have been right, but im not.

$1k a month for daycare?! Where do you think you would find that? For two kids I was paying a little over $1600/month.

$300/mo for student loans? $1000/mo for daycare? And you say I'm the one throwing out unreasonable numbers?

Those are real numbers so it's a bit wild to say they are unrealistic.

I was quoted 1k in the past and as I said in the post I split the subsidized and unsubsidized costs in your op. Plus not everyone has two kids in daycare at the same time. The number isn't crazy but even if we go with a full 1600, no subsidization for two kids the budget works. It just gets tighter.

Not the original person you were responding to, but i read your post and couldn't help to think its a little detached from what I've experienced. First off your income is much larger than the average, the average Mainer makes 36k a year, households 63k, so you taking home over 65k after taxes, health insurance, and retirement makes you much wealthier than your average Mainer. I know 10k-20k doesn't seem much but it adds up over time and giving you opportunities others cannot.

Secondly getting a house in southern Maine for under 350k is gonna be a struggle. Sure you'll find some houses for 300k but they either require a lot of repairs, or you'll find yourself in a bidding war and the price will end up near the 350-400k anyways. For the numbers below I took a 300k house in Ogunquit for the numbers.

So lets run these numbers for the average Mainer to see what it looks like.

Income - $5,416

Taxes* - $1,300

Home - $1,990

Utilities - $200 (low estimate for a home)

Groceries - $400 (Very small for a family of 3, and the price keeps rising)

Health Insurance - $200-800$ (depending on your job and the family plan)

Child care - $1000 (your estimate cost)

And we've already run out of money for the average Mainer, and we haven't gotten to phone bills, car bills, gas, car insurance, emergencies, retirement, basic needs, and everything else.

Now I know you can say don't buy that much house on that income, but the alternative is renting, which wouldn't be that much cheaper short term and much more expensive the the long run.

You might say then move to place with a lower cost of living, but these either farther away from family (who can bring down child care expenses), or from better playing jobs which then makes the cheaper cost of living still hard to maintain. The other expenses, I'm not sure how you get around them.

You keep saying "live below your means", but I can help to notice your earning almost three times the average Mainer, and idk if you know what that would mean in todays world.

Maybe in 2005. I'd wager the average student loan borrower today is paying back at least $600/mo on the 10 year plan. Two borrowers? Double it, obviously.

As for childcare, others clearly disagree with you there too. Just look at the OP.

Realistic to whom? Your user name suggests you don't live in Maine full time, which means you must have a certain level of income outside the norm for most Mainers.

I'm not trying to be rude, but your baseline for most Mainers is not accurate. $400 for groceries is not going to feed a family of 4 with today's prices. You left a little of $1700 for other expenses. That is not enough for car payment, sewer, water, electricity, oil Internet, gas, meds and other necessities.

I don't know your story, but with the evidence I have I cannot imagine you raised kids within the last decade.

They are either trying to gaslight people or are just out of touch.

They also likely didn't budget $7750 to max out an HSA account. Without that we'd be in perpetual medical debt.

Meanwhile next door in New Brunswick they are reducing childcare to $10 a day. The program essentially pays for itself, as people who would otherwise stay out of the workforce due to the high cost of childcare, start working again and increase the tax revenue, and GDP of the province/state. Creates a stronger economy and increases population. The only issue is that it's too popular and people start having kids and need to get their kid enrolled in childcare upon being born to ensure their spot. Luckily Canada has up to 18 months of parental leave.

I don't have an HSA eligible insurance. We have an emergency fund and have never been in deep medical debt because we can afford our Copayments.

Not everything is gaslighting just because you don't like to hear it. What point is there to lie about finances on reddit of all places?

I'm a full time Maine resident. My income is low for what you see on this sub. Total household income for my wife and I is around $82k. I have a kid still in diapers. Paid for my car in full and my household shares 1 car. We don't like having a car payment. I feed my family for less than that most weeks and we eat pretty well.

I imagine you probably make more than I do individually and if you have a working partner probably more on a household level. Unless your a paraprofessional in education who make a true pittance.

Just because you don't want to believe what I'm saying doesn't make it un true. I've been very cautious with money over the years and I've been good with it.

Maybe post your budget if you can't make what's going on work? Someone could steer you in the right direction.

Edit: I want to add I'm really not trying to be a dick and I would gladly try to help on a budget. This site just tends to believe everything is impossible and there's nothing that can be done to make a situation work when that is often not the case.

I was in highschool in 2005. My debt is a very realistic number for attending a state school and graduating within the past decade.

Did you see the post I was responding to? I was addressing the guy saying you needed $150k to raise kids here.

I know the average Mainer makes less than me and I'm happy to be comfortable with what I have even if I wish I had more. I just used my situation to address the ludicrous idea that you need $150k to have kids here.

The average is around $40,000 which is about what both my wife and I had. I lived at home until I was 28 (I'm 40 now) and paid them off. Most people I know that graduated in the last 10 years have ~$1000/mo student loan payments. Your story and my story are not the norm. The difference here is I'm aware of that fact.

[deleted]

[deleted]

Where do you live in Maine? That could explain a lot here. We didn't have a choice of medical insurance plan so we have what we have. That's something else that is the norm.

The gaslighting comment isn't implying you're lying about finances, it's about you dismissing what is very clearly the norm as if it isn't the norm.

I left at about average. I had 38k after graduation. There are many payment options to lower your monthly bill and you can always pay above the bill amount.

I don't know a single person who ended up with a $1k a month student loan payment and they've all graduated or attended college in the past decade.

I pay $500 a month for full time licensed childcare in Cumberland County. 🤷🏻‍♀️

$38K on a 10-year plan is going to be a hell of a lot more than $300/mo. Considering two incomes are almost a requirement now to buy a house, unless your partner came from money they will likely have student loans of their own. We waited until our late 30s to have children because of this. Both of our parents had children in their early-to-mid 20s.

I'm not the one downvoting you by the way.

Every parent here would love to know where.

Brunswick!

And this is an actual daycare that the public could utilize? I'm right next door to Brunswick and everything in Freeport and Yarmouth is $275/wk on the low end.

Yes, they are licensed with the state of Maine. You can find them on the Maine licensed child care search website, that’s how I found them 3 years ago!

I think you have, by far, the cheapest daycare in Southern Maine assuming that is the retail rate and isn't being subsidized. My sister-in-law is about to pay well over double that so I'll tell her to consider looking one town north instead of one town south.

I don’t even live in Brunswick. I drive there from Yarmouth because the daycare prices are so insane everywhere. Plus they’re great with my kiddo so I can’t complain. (Other than being tired from having to wake up early to drive to Brunswick 😅)

Well, your original comment came across to me as if you were saying "you people are crazy, I only pay $500/mo" but it sounds like you are well aware of what most parents in Southern Maine are paying.

You don't have to be on a ten year plan. You can do 25 or income based. These generally lower your monthly payment and there is no penalty for paying more. I had mine on 25 but paid them back aggressively. Plus student loans have been paused for a long time now, and I think still are. It's not something that should have impacted most people's budgets for the past two years.

You're a bit older than me as I'm in my thirties. You may just think the situation is worse for people younger and it really isn't. There are options if people choose to pursue them and the opinion on this site really doesn't reflect reality.

You don't have to, but there are many people out there who are not financially disciplined enough to be on a longer plan and pay anything more than the minimum. I don't think my original comment was focused enough and is mostly based on my own personal experiences. I live in a neighborhood about 30 minutes north of Portland that isn't too dissimilar from the one I or my wife grew up in. The difference, however, is that the parents here who have children are either older, have two graduate-level+ careers, and/or have family helping out with childcare. The couples that don't have children still have two white collar incomes. I grew up on a police officer's salary and my wife on a truck driver's salary. The average first time homeowner demographic is very different today.

> My mortgage was $1500 a month

I agree with your overall point, this number suggests you found a house extremely cheap. Even with PMI, it's something like a 180k house with good credit. Renting or buying, you're paying 2k-2500 for housing if you are a household of 3.

$400 for food a month is doable, but tight. 3 years ago, it would have been luxurious. Say goodbye to fresh fruits for the kids!

Utilities will average out around $6-800 a month for that household.

Transport with a paid off car will be $3-400 a month as well - to get that low $2k housing you will be doing significantly more travel.

So of your $1700, we ate $1200 to simply not freeze, and travel to/from work.

Now add in: professional development/education costs, home maintenance (2-4k/year), any pets, any medical costs (your costs indicated a low-premium plan), haircuts & clothing...

Can it be done? Totally.

But people like mr "need 150k" arent wrong that to do it requires sacrifice. A $100k family in 2005 would get to take vacations, go skiing, go to camp in the summer - not so much now.

I think you're numbers remain high. I take vacations, I have savings and the house that I had that mortgage at was a 3 bedroom near a Public transit line (not in Maine.) It was on the smaller end but still in a major metro area.

Also at 400 a month food we eat almost exclusively fresh fruits veg's and meat. I won't buy processed nonsense.

Sure if you want a McMansion you need more money but this has been doable as recently as the past few years. You just have to fight lifestyle creep and actually set a budget. You don't need an over 6 figure household income to be perfectly comfortable, and able to take vacations, with kids.

400 a month fresh fruits, veg and meat for 3? That's impressive, and I dont know that would be possible most places. Certainly not in southern maine/portland area.

that subsidy has a household income limit of 80k CAD, or 58k USD. for a household income of 70k CAD on a family of four its still around 500 dollars a month depending on the ages and assuming 5 days a week.

calculator here

maine's subsidy program has an income limit of 84k usd for a family of 4 according to this. without knowing how much op makes or the maine rates, it might not be that much better

​ in this pdf it describes the number of people benefitting from the program:

>Through the Parent Subsidy, roughly 3,500 families with an annual income of less than $80,000 have better access to quality early learning and childcare.

that seems shockingly low. i would bet the number of people benefitting from the maine program is at least 4 times that. can't really find this info and i'm bored of reading about it now. safe to say you are heavily misrepresenting that program. with such a low income cap there's no way it "pays for itself" by incentivizing workforce participation. it only would benefit single parent households or students. two parents working full time at new brunswick's minimum wage would place them pretty close to the income cap

Well that's because you're looking at the old provincial parent subsidy program, which is unrelated. You seemed to have gone down a rabbit hole. The 10$ a day childcare was just instituted a year ago roughly with the federal govt and will be fully fledged over the next 5 years with half a billion invested. This will result in the average daily cost for childcare being 10$ per family by the end, but savings for families are already being seen. There are no income limits currently and all can access, regardless of income. This is modelled after Quebec which has had this for decades, and is being rolled out in all of the other provinces and territories over the next 5 years. Quebec found they did not have to increase taxes to fund the program as they garnered more tax income from the increased participation in the workforce by parents. This has been well documented.

Every province and territory has a deal with the feds now for 10$ a day childcare for all families: feel free to peruse:

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6400123

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/nb-signs-daycare-deal-1.6283596

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/federal-provincial-agreement-605-child-care-funding-1.6100441

https://globalnews.ca/news/9257368/ontario-child-care-program-10-a-day/

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/more-10-a-day-child-care-spaces-1.6636946

https://globalnews.ca/news/8101331/manitoba-child-care-federal-plan-reaction/

Nevertheless, participation is early but heavy. My own sister who lives in Alberta, and her family make great money around $200,000 a year. Her childcare costs already went down from $2000 a month to $500 with two kids. She could go back to working full time. Hell, some provinces like Ontario are actually giving retroactive rebates for parents who paid more before the program started. Overall while the program is young it outstrips the weakly funded Maine subsidy program by leaps and bounds already. Even the most conservative provinces in Canada saw the economic value of the program, and early stats show economic benefit.

oh. i thought i was looking at the right thing with that