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LuckyandBrownie t1_j9nh1te wrote

It’s hard to come up with evidence that would change your mind, because if you knew it you would already have changed your mind. It’s on the person arguing to pay attention to what the other person sees as important and engage that way.

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poormansnormal t1_j9niq2a wrote

I would be asking more for the hypothetical type of situation.

"Hypothetically, if there was a 100% verified, notarized, photograph of Ogopogo, I'd have to believe it."

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LuckyandBrownie t1_j9nrhv0 wrote

Bigfoot is real. He lives in Washington and vacations in Alaska in the summers.

What proof could make me not believe this?

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cheeze_whiz_shampoo t1_j9ogih0 wrote

>What proof could make me not believe this?

The real answer is shame. Deep, aggressive shame.

Our culture did not experience a tidal wave of anti intellectualism in the last 20 years, it experienced a tidal wave of unencumbered shamelessness.

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slomobileAdmin t1_j9qhak8 wrote

A very tall hairy person that lives in Washington and summers in Alaska joins the conversation. He regales you with tales of tourists trying to take his picture. Every time you look at him, he appears blurry.

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[deleted] t1_j9o7i6n wrote

If the all the all knowing gods that have been proven to exist tell me Bigfoot doesn't exist I will believe it.

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Preposterous_punk t1_j9qlddo wrote

Okay, if it was shown to you that all the “evidence” supporting the idea that he exists was faked, would you accept that there was no reason to believe? How about the people involved in faking the evidence explaining to you how it was done. How about being shown the origins of the idea, that were clearly written as fiction? What if the entire us army devoted five years to searching every inch of Washington and Alaska, going so far as to burn down every tree and raze every building, and came up with nothing?

There is some reason or reasons you decided to believe in Bigfoot. If those reasons were shown to be invalid, would you accept that it is more reasonable to assume that there is not a giant hairy half-ape/half-man creature who has managed to avoid capture and whose existence can’t be anything close to “explained” by everything we know about the world?

If you know why you believe in something, or don’t believe in something, it’s not that hard to see what would change your mind. If you don’t know why, shouldn’t you figure it out?

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montanunion t1_j9o64ey wrote

Yeah exactly, also a lot of debates and arguments are not based on evidence to begin with, but rather values, ideals or goals. Facts are important in debates, but usually the debate is not about facts but about conclusions/opinions. You can also often have the exact same evidence and come to different conclusion.

If somebody asked me "What evidence would change your mind that gay people should be able to get married?", "What evidence would change your mind that women should have access to abortion?", "What evidence would change your mind that religion and state should be separate things?" my answer definitely would be "none".

There's no amount of evidence that you could show me to change my mind on these topics (even though for example I've seen statistics about the risks of abortion or whatever), because these are in the end opinions and not facts and they are just as much about the (inherently in provable) value judgement about how things should be, rather than how things are.

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SmallShoes_BigHorse t1_j9omddz wrote

And as long as they are about opinions and all know it, the discussion can serve a purpose.

But when it's a fact based discussion ('is there a new world order' etc) and there is nothing that COULD convince you otherwise, then it's not a discussion but rather a shouting match and quite purposeless.

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slomobileAdmin t1_j9qr7h0 wrote

Um. Not really. Even if the discussion is only about opinions, especially if it is only about opinions, an unwillingness to even consider changing your opinion makes it a pointless discussion. Facts are not subject to change by discussion.

There is technically a new world order any time new world leaders are elected and change policy. I'll accept that as fact, though it isn't very meaningful to me. If you ascribe different meaning to "new world order", particularly outlandish conspiracy, I might need you to clarify whether our shared words have shared meaning. I may then need to retract a previous statement, assume you have a poor understanding of what facts are, and back away slowly as you shout at me.

That is slightly different from being unwilling to consider that I am wrong. It is the regretful acknowledgement that from now on, anything presented as fact by you will no longer receive the benefit of doubt. Your facts are tainted. I may however accept the same facts if presented by someone else in a careful, self consistent way that agrees with my observations and avoids common fallacies.

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SmallShoes_BigHorse t1_j9sy2pb wrote

Yea, that's why I said 'can serve a purpose' there's no guarantee that it will, but at least there's a possibility.

I had an old colleague who loved talking about globalists, NWO, Trump/Biden and just loved tossing out bait-headlines and then the 'discussion' would begin. And at one point I asked if there was anything that had the potential to change his mind, he said no. And I never engaged in discussion with him again. Because he will always be right in his POV.

Because he has decided his POV is the correct one, you can be sure he doesn't fact check his own facts but rather assumes that everything that supports his POV is correct. Which means that even though I could be persuaded to leave my standpoint, I can't trust anything that he says, since he'll swallow anything with the right shape.

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bestaquaneer t1_j9sixyo wrote

Exactly. Like Trump could scream at me that COVID-19 is fake until he’s blue in the face, and I wouldn’t believe him even if it was weeks later. A medical doctor, who calmly explained with scientific evidence that COVID-19 is fake, could get me to believe them. Sure, Trump was right, but the way the information was presented and from what I know about the person that presented it, I didn’t believe him.

(I would like to clarify that I don’t actually think COVID is fake. I know better.)

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thatfluffycloud t1_j9p8udb wrote

What would get me to change my mind in your examples would be if there was solid evidence of significant harm being done.

Like yes I 100% support gay marriage. I would change my mind if there was solid proof that all gay people who get married are secretly robots with a plot to destroy the world and it's not actually about love and human rights. (I know that would never happen, but if it did, I might change my mind! Because I follow the evidence.)

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Lithogiraffe t1_j9oxct3 wrote

Yeah, this feels like an anti-socratic method of arguing. This LPT seems more like IF you want to stop an argument from continuing, THEN you pull this tip, because no one will want to argue seemingly for the other side and will probably say 'nothing' and the argument will end.

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Sh00ting5tar t1_j9nzsv1 wrote

Exactly. "What argument do you accept to prove you are wrong?".

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LuckyandBrownie t1_j9o5meo wrote

I can’t know, because if I knew I would have already changed my mind. You have to come up with an argument I don’t know to change my mind. All of the arguments that I currently know haven’t changed it.

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hybepeast t1_j9owh69 wrote

Bigfoot is real, I believe that because he's been sighted in Washington in photos X Y and Z.

Evidence of X Y and Z being fake would change my mind.

What's so hard about this? You have to understand what their stance is, and what evidence they have to develop that stance. Then you break down their evidence.

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Prometheus188 t1_j9p4ey6 wrote

I don’t believe in God, but if God simply showed himself and started bringing the dead back to life, that may convince me. Or if I had a 50 digit number written on a piece of paper in my pocket, and he could recite it to me, that would potentially be convincing.

Or I don’t believe in the existence of unicorns. But if I were to see a real life unicorn and upon scientific analysis, could confirm it isn’t a horse with a superglued horn in it, and that this unicorn could reproduce with other unicorns over several generations to create new unicorns, and that I could see the birth of a new unicorn with the horn, that would convince me that unicorns exist.

Your statement is completely wrong. It’s entirely possible to be aware of what would convince you, without actually being convinced if it beforehand.

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sapphicpattern t1_j9om6uf wrote

What does the word “hypothetical” mean and why is relevant to your response?

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bestaquaneer t1_j9sj88u wrote

You can know what would change your mind, but you don’t know if it’s true or not. I can say forever that I know for a fact that the cat in the box is alive, because I can hear it yowling. What would change my mind? Schrodinger, showing me the recording of the cat meowing and the box with the dead cat inside. That doesn’t change the fact that based on my current evidence, I know the cat is alive. I can think of the evidence that would change my mind, but as it hasn’t been presented to me, I’m going to go with my current knowledge.

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LuckyandBrownie t1_j9svzrx wrote

Schrödinger’s cat has been perverted by popularity. It’s not that the cat is alive or dead it’s something else entirely. When someone looks at the cat it is forced into being alive or dead, but is currently something neither alive nor dead. It’s in a third state of being.

So your argument is wrong, and you had no idea why. If asked would you have said that it could be wrong because of a misnomer about superposition?

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bestaquaneer t1_j9u1608 wrote

That’s a very long winded way of saying you don’t understand when someone is using an analogy.

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LuckyandBrownie t1_j9u2t4p wrote

The point of an analogy is to illustrate a point, but your analogy is false so it doesn’t illustrate your point.

It’s important to understand the use of analogies.

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cheltsie t1_j9o64ge wrote

This. Not even having an argument in mind, my immediate response is, "I don't know, present something to me and allow me to present something to you. Then we can both consider the other's arguments and decide with time."

And, frankly, finding someone willing to argue their point, listen to an opposing point, and agree it will take time for both parties to consider is.... rare.

Usually people asking this question are just trying to weaponize whatever you say against you. And they'll use the above response to retort that your stance doesn't matter because you're willing to admit there may be something you don't know.

And then these are the same people to turn around and say you can't base things off your own experience.

How about instead of arguing, try to agree to disagree and then have interesting discussions regarding those disagreements? Now that makes for a good hangout buddy.

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Eve-3 t1_j9oe6fo wrote

That's the kind of hangout buddy I like! Talk about whatever, passionately, but completely ok that you disagree. Heck, if you agree it's a boring talk.

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yet-more-bees t1_j9rlm4r wrote

You can go the extreme.

I am almost certain that God does not exist. However if the sky literally parted and an unfathomably large bearded man boomed out "I am God, the Protestant Christians were right all along, and now I'm going to rapture them all" and then all the Christians disappeared, I would be convinced that God exists.

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Preposterous_punk t1_j9qjz0t wrote

>>>It’s hard to come up with evidence that would change your mind because if you knew it you would already have changed your mind.

I’m not sure I understand? Why would knowing what evidence would change your mind cause you to change your mind?

Do you go “I don’t think the lunch lady killed my boss, but it occurs to me that if I saw verified footage of the lunch lady holding a smoking gun, standing over my boss’s dead body, loudly proclaiming she’d killed him, along with a public confession, along with forensic evidence, I would be believe it… so now even though I’ve seen none of that, I’ve changed my mind and now think the lunch lady killed my boss!”?

I do not believe the moon is made of cheese. I am fully aware of what evidence would change my mind. I have not changed my mind because I have not seen that evidence. I do not believe in God. I know what would make me believe, and it hasn’t happened, so I don’t believe. Etc.

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XXXforgotmyusername t1_j9orkqi wrote

I will admit in an argument. Rarely to I phrase things in the way I should. If I’m polite, and correct, I can make people admit to anything. The politeness is the hard stuff!

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