I'm John Swierk, assistant professor of Chemistry at Binghamton University, State University of New York. My team and I are working to understand the molecular composition of tattoo inks to provide a broader understanding to artists and consumers. AMA!

Submitted by intengineering t3_yxw6oj in IAmA

 Hello all, I've been studying the photochemistry of tattoos - my team has been investigating the particle size and molecular composition of tattoo pigments using Raman spectroscopy, nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy, and electron microscopy. Currently, we're in the process of analyzing popular tattoo ink brands - the resultant information will be collated and added to the website "What's in My Ink". As of now, we've confirmed the presence of ingredients that aren’t listed on some labels. For example, 23 out of 56 different inks analyzed to date suggest the presence of an azo-containing dye. Although many azo pigments do not cause health concerns when they are chemically intact, bacteria or ultraviolet light can degrade these into another nitrogen-based compound that is a potential carcinogen.

In August 2022, my work was featured in Interesting Engineering, and the publication helped organize this AMA session. Ask me anything about what goes into tattoo inks and how one can make informed decisions before getting a tattoo, and understand the accuracy of the provided information.

2 pm EST: Thanks everyone for participating and for the questions! Unfortunately, I have to run to a meeting but I enjoyed getting to share a little bit about our work. -JRS

PROOF: https://i.redd.it/98l5vxo4mj0a1.jpg

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Comments

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laughlines t1_iwqxvlz wrote

Hey John! Albany tattoo shop owner here. Two questions.

Are you looking at the difference between the EU certified inks and US brands that choose not to certify, or feature different product lines for the continents? Ex. Dynamic

Second, do you have thoughts or a goal on how your research can be used to improve industry or product standards?

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intengineering OP t1_iwqz622 wrote

We haven't differentiated really between EU and US inks. Most of what we've looked at are what is available in the US and the same product seems to be available overseas. In chatting with ink manufacturers, my sense is that they don't really have alternatives to many of the banned pigments (e.g., blues and greens) and will likely just pull those inks from the market.

In terms of industry, a major project we are working on right now is just understanding what's in the ink bottle versus whats on the label (if it is labeled). We are finding a pretty high number of discrepancies, some of which are probably minor (e.g., using ethyl alcohol instead of the listed isopropyl alcohol) but in other cases we are finding different pigments in the bottles or one additive swapped for another. As a starting point, a complete and accurate listing of ink ingredients seems like an important first step. -JRS

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laughlines t1_iwr8xqq wrote

Thank you for the reply! In your follow up to one person about people not understanding the common pigments, we go through that a fair amount. Something like “I’ve had a reaction to blue ink do you use a different brand that wouldn’t give me a problem”. Or carbon black pigment being carbon black everywhere.

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headloser t1_ix493ze wrote

No buy any China "certified" ink that for sure.

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server_busy t1_iwqv36g wrote

Is this project funded by a grant or is it driven by the body art industry?

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intengineering OP t1_iwqw7vz wrote

Our work is funded by a grant from the National Institutes of Health. We don't receive any material or financial support from the body art industry. -JRS

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Dont_know_nothin0 t1_iwsgmxa wrote

Are there certain inks that affect the lymph nodes or cause lymphoma? Any studies done?

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byebyemayos t1_iwtihdg wrote

Tattoo ink can often end up in the lymph node, but doesn't elicit any visible reaction once there

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greem t1_iwsi13q wrote

That's surprising to me. As a medical-type, research-y person, I support it. It's just surprising.

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PoutinePower t1_iwqugxc wrote

So it’s 50/50 chance my tattoos can be carcinogenic? Would applying sunscreen prevent the UV degradation?

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intengineering OP t1_iwqvh67 wrote

We honestly don't know the definitive answer on carcinogenicity but certainly the pigments used in tattoo inks have real concerns associated with them. Definitely applying sun screen can't hurt since UV degradation is a real and not understood pathway. For someone who is very concerned, keeping tattoos covered in general is probably the safest bet since we also don't understand how visible light can impact degradation. -JRS

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YoungPatrickBateman t1_iwrel6f wrote

As someone who has fair skin and many tattoos I can confirm sun exposure contributes to tattoo degredation.

I have a black tattoo around my wrist, around 13 years old, and it has turned a kind of blue-black colour. I’d say my wrist is frequently exposed to sunlight and the most commonly missed part of my body when applying sunscreen. All of my other black tattoos have remained black over the years. They’re in locations which are either covered by clothing or protected by sunscreen.

I also live in Australia - the sun is pretty intense here.

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Sence t1_iwrv3h7 wrote

I'm also fair skinned and grew up surfing with fairly diligent sunscreen use but have definitely had more than a few days of sunburn from lack of reapplying. I have a black piece on my upper arm and one on my upper thigh. My thigh almost never sees sunlight and both those 20 year old tattoos have the same level of color degradation.

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YoungPatrickBateman t1_iwsqe0v wrote

Interesting. I wonder how much a persons personal biology plays into the degradation of ink in conjunction with external environmental factors.

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PoutinePower t1_iwqx1as wrote

Very interesting thing to keep in mind! Thanks for the answer!

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MNGirlinKY t1_iwutxwg wrote

It’s the number one best protection for your tattoos. If you have 10 grand invested into your sleeves you certainly don’t want to expose them to the sun.

This is really interesting I’m going to share this with my artist. Thank you

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FlexasState t1_iwquxb3 wrote

If we want to avoid more carcinogenic prone ink, how should we ask our tatto artists? “Hey do you have X type ink? I heard ink with Y ingredients can be harmful later?”

Also do you have a tattoo? Why or why not?

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intengineering OP t1_iwqvujz wrote

Unfortunately, because we don't understand the potential carcinogenicity of the pigments it's a hard question to answer. One thing that I don't think most folks understand is that pretty much all tattoo inks use a common set of pigments. The difference between "good" and "poor" inks appears to be in the processing and additives. -JRS

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shitlord_god t1_iws8pjs wrote

"good" and "poor" for market segment, or for performance in this testing?

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irishnewf86 t1_iwtjogl wrote

if you want to avoid carcinogenic ink, try avoiding getting it injected into you. Can't imagine how anyone would think ink would be benign after being injected into living tissue.

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D4bbled_In_P4cifism t1_iwtl4ls wrote

Really? You gotta be that guy?

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irishnewf86 t1_iwxssw8 wrote

the tattoo community is really touchy, lol

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[deleted] t1_iwxxijc wrote

[deleted]

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irishnewf86 t1_iwzozd3 wrote

thanks for validating my comment :)

You were so triggered by a harmless comment that you had to make up a comment about my alleged "divisive" comment history!

The only posts of mine that have been massively downvoted are the ones where I point out that injecting a carcinogen into a living organ for narcissistic aesthetic purposes is a stupid thing to do.

But hey, if injecting printer ink into living cells is your thing, fill your boots, moron.

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[deleted] t1_ix0adta wrote

[deleted]

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irishnewf86 t1_ix1kcv2 wrote

shouldn't you be off getting printer ink injected into a living organ somewhere?

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irishnewf86 t1_ix1kn25 wrote

better to follow r/hypertension than r/childtouchers

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baltikorean t1_iwqy6yh wrote

Favorite spiedie place?

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intengineering OP t1_iwqyhgr wrote

Lupos. -JRS

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magneticgumby t1_iwrmr8m wrote

Hear me out...if you can find it, Renko's (the pickled sausage people) make a spiedie sauce now that is freaking amazing. We even got wild and mixed it 50/50 with Lupos. Transcendence. Also, shout out to Red Chilis, not spiedies but favorite spot in Binghamton.

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Pterafractyl t1_iwvaqiw wrote

I love Red Chilis. But I am so confused why they decorated the place beautifully, but then left the center medium bare drywall that's not even sanded.

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magneticgumby t1_iwverwm wrote

I heard from someone they had different design plans pre-COVID and then made a change to them and just haven't gotten to it yet it appears. It is definitely odd, but nothing some soup dumplings can't fix, haha

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Pterafractyl t1_iwvke4t wrote

Their food is pretty amazing. It's just such a jarring juxtaposition with how beautiful the rest of the building looks.

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Pterafractyl t1_iwwtf6x wrote

Well, currently sitting and red chili and I see they have finally painted it. 😝

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magneticgumby t1_iwwtp7x wrote

Ha! That's awesome. Maybe they saw this thread and now I have an excuse to go there in the best future

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Pterafractyl t1_iwvajzr wrote

Spiedie and rib pit on upper front street is the gold standard.

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intengineering OP t1_iwr5n2u wrote

Thanks everyone for participating and for the questions! Unfortunately, I have to run to a meeting but I enjoyed getting to share a little bit about our work.

-JRS

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evocon15 t1_iwqx84x wrote

Do you have any tattoos?? :)

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intengineering OP t1_iwqyg8t wrote

I don't but that has more to do with very few of my friends having tattoos when I was growing up and in my 20s. I have nothing against tattoos but they never felt like a priority for me. -JRS

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evocon15 t1_iwrtpq6 wrote

Right on! I think it's actually really interesting research, as someone who has considered tattoos (but also does not have any currently) it was interesting to me that for such an ancient tradition, there has been relatively little scientific exploration of them. I know there has been a little bit of research done on the immunogenic effects and how that might play into suppressing autoimmune disease, but from what I could see there doesn't currently seem to be any conclusive evidence one way or the other.

Do you spend any time thinking about the LD50 of any of the carcinogens you are studying (I know carcinogens aren't really toxins so it probably doesn't make sense to talk about them in terms of LD50, but I guess I'm wondering if it is known how much of them, if any, can be tolerated before a significant increase in risk of cancer; or maybe it's just on a continuum). Have you also looked at what happens spatially to these compounds over time? Do they get degraded or trafficked away from the tattoo site or do they just kind of sit there?

​

Super cool research!

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beth_at_home t1_iwr16z8 wrote

I've had my tattoos for over 40 years, should I be looking for anything on my blood work, or actual skin?

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intengineering OP t1_iwr1yf3 wrote

We honestly don't know and that's part of the challenge. We don't actually know what we SHOULD be looking for with tattoos since we understand so little about their interactions with the body and their mechanisms of breakdown. Hopefully our work and the work of others can start to identify what we should be looking for. -JRS

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[deleted] t1_iwrtwp3 wrote

[deleted]

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Ojhka956 t1_iws39og wrote

Thats part of what they are working on, finding possible carcinogenic causes or pathways from ink dyes

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Mrs-Anders t1_iws86y9 wrote

Besides from understanding the causes it can also be studied from a statistical point of view - i.e. whether people with tattoos have cancer more often that people without tattoos.

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dont_shoot_jr t1_iwr17ee wrote

What are the chances you become Binghamton University’s second Nobel prize team?

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inkyspearo t1_iwqw7xy wrote

what brands are you testing? is your main goal to establish safety protocols, or make tattoos last longer/look better over time?

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intengineering OP t1_iwqy6dr wrote

We've spent some time talking to artists to identify what are considered good, major brands and what are considered poor brands. Until we publish the data, hopefully in the next couple months, we are a little reluctant to share specific brands until everyone, manufacturers included, can look at and review our data.

​

In terms of goals, our main goal is to empower artists and consumers. We aren't anti-tattoo but we want folks to understand what the potential risks are and are not and then make a personal choice. Hopefully, that leads to better labeling and manufacturing protocols, which may enhance the safety. In terms of tattoo stability over time, understanding the basic science of tattoos and how they degrade I think is necessary first step in making longer lasting tattoos. -JRS

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HappyJaguar t1_iwr17do wrote

Are you using any extractions or separation chemistry? I would assume the spectra are quite complex upon direct analysis.

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intengineering OP t1_iwr26n6 wrote

We use a variety of chromatography techniques, electron microscopy, X-ray fluorescence, and others to evaluate the inks. You are correct that they are quite complex so step one is often just separating the components with something like distillation to simplify the analysis. -JRS

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NotAPreppie t1_iwr9x5l wrote

Okay, UV fluorescent tattoo dyes: awesome or unnecessary risk?

I know many (most?) fluorophores have crazy aromaticity but couldn’t they just use titanium dioxide (or is that also significantly toxic)?

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Atalantius t1_iwu38f0 wrote

Can’t directly weigh in, but what I am aware of is that nanoparticles of TiO2 interacts with UV absorbers in sun screen to accelerate the breakdown of aromatic sunscreens into toxic substances, from doing research for a paper on that topic.

So, it is possible that TiO2 might interact with the other components of the ink.

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elmonoenano t1_iwr0vft wrote

What do you think the likelihood of getting a black ink that stays black? Or at least more black than current inks?

When we get tattoos should be getting the tradenames of the ink to see if unlisted ingredients pop up in the fortune?

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intengineering OP t1_iwr1psy wrote

Black inks are pretty interesting and it's not 100% clear to me why they "blue." My best guess (and I emphasize this is a guess) is that because the particle sizes in black inks tend to be very small that it's easier for the pigment to diffuse out away from where the ink was embedded. Very small particles scatter blue light and take on a blue-ish tint and so I speculate that might be what's happening here as you move away from the embedded black ink and have a "dilute" concentration of black pigment.

I would definitely encourage folks to get whatever data they can about the inks in their tattoos and hang onto the info. At a minimum, allergic reactions are a known issue with tattoos and can crop up long after tattooing. One big challenge we have is figuring out what the specific allergens are since we don't know 1) what ink was used and 2) what was in the inks. We hope our work can help address #2. If people keep better records of the inks that were used that would go a long way towards addressing #1. -JRS

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draxsmon t1_iwszvq8 wrote

Im allergic to PPD. Is that in all ink?

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Inorganic_or_bust t1_iwr1g3g wrote

What techniques are you using to determine metal composition? Are most pigments organic or inorganic or both?

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intengineering OP t1_iwr2k1t wrote

Right now for quantitative purposes, microwave digestion and ICP-MS. For more qualitative purposes, X-ray fluorescence and/or EDAX. Most of the colored pigments are "organic" or molecular. There are some exceptions like iron oxides in browns and some reds. Black pigments are mostly carbon black and white is most TiO2 or barium sulfate, which would be considered "inorganic" or solid pigments. -JRS

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Inorganic_or_bust t1_iwr4bz0 wrote

Thanks. TiO2 is also photo reactive. I don't think it's that big of a deal when used topically, but it could be a concern subdermally. Especially if the active species reacts with the organic pigments.

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fulcrumlever t1_iwvmwan wrote

I’m not sure I understand why carbon black would be considered inorganic? Tattoo artist here.

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knbknb t1_iwrfmdn wrote

Which ink color is the most problematic? Which color has the (potentially) most toxic ingredients ? Which color the most difficult to remove (surgically with lasers)?

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catsandnarwahls t1_iwsmfo1 wrote

Tattoo artist for 15 years

Blue and green are hardest to remove with lasers.

Red and browns because they have metal oxides is what ive found most folks to have an immediate reaction to. If im using a bunch of reds or browns, i will do a poke test under the arm just to see if there is a reaction.

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draxsmon t1_iwszqqv wrote

Im allergic to PPD. Would you know if there is any tattoo I can get?

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fwutocns t1_iwr4z2w wrote

A tattoo on my lower back (right side) is the only one that itches and gets raised every so often. Once, what seemed like a hardened ink grain came out of the tattoo when I was lotioning it (i thought it was a hive)... ! Am I allergic to something? I had existing tattoos with no reaction before getting this and have gotten more after this with no problem.

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laughlines t1_iwra07a wrote

Practical non medical advice here, my wife owns a tattoo shop. In our experience with both of us being allergic to a lot of environmental things, you’re not likely allergic to the ink itself (that has a very ugly and very noticeable look) but probably having a general inflammation response from something else. Like being allergic to cats or dust. That kinda thing.

Different inks also use different ingredients to keep the pigment stable. Some use plastic, some use tree resin, some don’t use anything. Anecdotally those carriers do keep the lines looking significantly sharper over 5-10 years.

Last on the ink grain - totally possible, especially if it had a plastic carrier. My wife has very thin skin on her hands and the black ink on her knuckles caused her some pain with pressure. So she cut it open with an xactco, and managed to squeeze out a nice lil piece of black plastic. Kinda freaky eh?

The raised itchy lines are very common though. I don’t know if anyone with significant coverage that doesn’t have the issue. It can also be confused for scarring - especially on the lines where people are more heavy handed - the raised pieces can be scar tissue. If you were to get it lasered you would still have raised, scar colored lines left behind.

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YoungPatrickBateman t1_iwrfygu wrote

>> The raised itchy lines are very common though. I don’t know if anyone with significant coverage that doesn’t have the issue.

I’m like a 30% covered and have been fortunate enough to have no raised skin reaction to any of my tattoos.

My partner though - has one tattoo and it looks like it’s all scar tissue.

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fwutocns t1_iwrpn0d wrote

WOW. Our body microplastics have congealed into a macroplastic. GREAT! Thank you for the antecdotal evidence, I feel better.

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intengineering OP t1_iwr5j7d wrote

I'm not a medical doctor so I can't say for sure but it sounds like you are having a reaction to something in the tattoo and should maybe talk to a dermatologist. Since we don't know what causes allergic reactions in some tattoos it's entirely possible that you are allergic to some pigment in the problem tattoo and that the pigment is present in other your other tattoos. However, that's only speculation on my part. -JRS

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dracapis t1_iwr78pc wrote

Are you differentiating between black and colorful ink? If so, what are the main differences in terms of potential risks?

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splittybus t1_iwr9ysr wrote

How often do you find nickle in ink?

I'm also curious if there is a link between different ingredients being more prone to keloid scarring....

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PandaPanda131 t1_iwskamc wrote

I got a tattoo in Greece and it gets highlighted by the TSA body scanner... Should I be concerned?

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RogueEyebrow t1_iwv04pi wrote

Do you mean it's showing on the scanner as metal? My understanding is that some colors have metal oxides, like red.

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badwhiskey63 t1_iwqz5ne wrote

Hey you may want to cross post this over at u/Binghamtonuniversity. What is the follow up for this study?

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intengineering OP t1_iwqzivv wrote

Short term, publish the results. Longer term, understand what the pigments fragment into and how mobile they are. Understand if heavy metal contaminants can become mobile from embedded inks. Also, trying to understand how pigments interact with skin cells in terms of toxicity and viability and how light might alter that picture. -JRS

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BlueCatLaughing t1_iwr88nf wrote

I think my question is too late but: tattoos and autoimmune conditions don't always mix well. Is there a pattern/definitive cause or way to know what ink would be least likely to become rejected?

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bingbong246 t1_iy3dkxh wrote

I'm not on the research team, but I go to Binghamton and have tattoos and a shitty immune system! What I did was got a teeny tiny dot to try it out on the side of my foot with whatever ink that the tattoo parlor in my city uses. I forgot the name of it, but I did look it up and got frustrated and said fuck it and monitored my symptoms. I was just fine! It caused my entire foot to be very itchy for 2 days but it didn't swell and it wasn't extremely itchy. I went back the next week and got about a 3-inch tattoo which healed fine (granted, I was diligent about aftercare, monitoring my symptoms, taking my meds, taking vitamins, etc). Also itchy but not crazy. Also, the dot on my foot faded within 3 months because that part of your skin can get sweaty in shoes and rub against socks and other materials.

I would definitely consult with the tattoo artists at the parlor and ask what ink specifically they use and do some research. Then, try it out on a small patch of your skin to see how you react.

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night_chaser_ t1_iwrzax5 wrote

Have you found a difference in toxicity based on the colour of ink and is there a link between ink colour and adverse health effects?

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LateralEntry t1_iwstvrm wrote

What’s your favorite dish at the Lost Dog Cafe?

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bingbong246 t1_iy3dp58 wrote

not him, but one must get the rigatoni a la vodka

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OGShrimpPatrol t1_iwu8wwb wrote

Where we’re you when I was doing my PhD? As a chemist who used to work in tattoo shops and is fairly covered, this is an area I was always interested in! Pretty cool and I’m looking forward to reading the papers.

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jewdai t1_iwundp1 wrote

What are your thoughts on the unidan debockle?

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IAmAModBot t1_iwqwuqe wrote

For more AMAs on this topic, subscribe to r/IAmA_Academic, and check out our other topic-specific AMA subreddits here.

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sicarii4512 t1_iwrvq3l wrote

Are there any safe brands of UV reactive tattoo ink?

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Doomgloomya t1_iws21ao wrote

Damn wished I could have caught this when you were here. Have yall considered checking out traditional tattoo ink from stick and poke artists in tribes and the like?

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8-bit-hero t1_iwszoqy wrote

So I’m aware they haven’t found evidence that tattoos can lead to cancer but my question is; is that because they haven’t done enough studies and it’s a low priority in the science community? Or have there been an adequate number done to mean it’s most likely safe?

I was actually planning to get my first tattoos next week but have been on the fence and have certainly wondered about safety.

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reco008 t1_iwtv3g4 wrote

How does the tattoo ink reflect colour? Is Each colour ink filled with a different metal ion or something?

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PrimeTenor t1_iwufbth wrote

A question I've always had: why are inks for dark skinned people so limited? Yes I know there skin absorbs the pigment in the ink (correct me if I'm wrong), but shouldn't someone by now have created an ink in the major colors for true black skin?

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Wacpl t1_iwv3f1f wrote

How are you handling the separation of all of the inks? I’m assuming there are many isomers to consider.

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imfromoverseas t1_iwvaut5 wrote

What’s your favorite restaurant in downtown Binghamton?

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Far_Vermicelli6468 t1_ixzp9xn wrote

I've heard that heavily tattooed individuals should not have MRIs, is this true?

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cheezburglar t1_iws194n wrote

What's your favorite conifer tree?

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[deleted] t1_iwroxjh wrote

[removed]

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Doomgloomya t1_iws1r92 wrote

says the person on reddit typing this to an academic doing research.

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ManFlavored t1_iwsqeej wrote

Aren't the more pressing issues in the world that need to be researched first?

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logiczny t1_iws2qsj wrote

Isn't that assistant to the professor instead of a assistant professor?

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logiczny t1_iwv7g96 wrote

Nobody's watching the office, I guess.

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ProperBoots t1_iwry4y4 wrote

Hello professor! I'm currently studying biomedicine. Why is organic chemistry such a horse shit course?

I jest, but seriously. Seems like everyone in the world agrees it's a bloated beast. Why is it not shaved down to something more reasonable? Why is it not updated with modern nomenclature that doesn't use a mix of Latin, Greek, German and Bullshittinian? Why can't the notation system be updated so we don't have to draw 7 different resonance structures? The freaking literature itself admits they don't exist and that it's just a shortcoming in the notation that forces us to draw them because people didn't know it existed when the system was developed!

... I'm sorry. I used to enjoy chemistry. They killed it for me.

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