Cool post!

Thank you for posting this. I’ve seen if before, but it always helps to put things in perspective.

Yeah.

I agree with the message but the goat obsessed with status just has too much drip

"blames self for world"

LOL what kind of bullshit is that?

I don't really think it makes sense grammatically, even. What are they trying to say?

i want to see the 3rd level. They probably look at the 2nd level as though they're the 1st level

It’s saying that your perception of the world is often a function of the attitude and intentions you enter it with. People who are kind and selfless often inspire or compel other people to do the same, either in return directly or in passing it forwards. People that put out that good energy often also see the benefits and are open to receiving kindness from other.

It’s not 100% foolproof obviously, and there’s still a lot about the world that’s awful, but whether you’re in the ‘there’s hope for humanity’ camp or the ‘burn it all down, humans are irredeemable’ camp often correlates to the way you treat other people yourself.

Don't let woke people see this, might be triggering.

Then they are not "woke", which as far as I understand is short for "awoken"

This is awesome

This is from Winston Rountree who does the Subnormality comic. Everything he does is worthwhile, though this is older work.

Don't bother showing this to people who use "woke" as an insult, they're not capable of growing as human beings, they're stuck as sheep.

I like this a lot, but a few of these goats appear to be in the wrong place?

I tried to sort out which goat at the bottom you are repping here, but there are quite a few.

should have been something like "tries to make a difference"

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Link to his website?

I think it's the realization that your actions affect the world, and others' perception of it, in a significant way. Of course there is some major differentiation about how much each of us affect the world, but to some degree we all do. It's the realization that we do not exist as observers of the world, but as observers and actors. An analogy might be the old phrase of "you are not in traffic, you are traffic". Similarly our actions build the world around us and we can choose to see how they (our actions) either make the world a better place to live or they make it worse.

I think it's not saying that "blames self for all of world's problems" but rather "blames self for not choosing the better path to make the world better". Even the best among us sometimes don't choose the action that makes the world better overall, but realizing that and trying to be better is the sign of maturity.

Hope this makes sense

Love the Kanyes on the status obsessed one. Aged well.

Can someone send this to #46?

How is this useful or motivating? In most aspects I'm like the "mature" group and know my own weaknesses. For people who are "immature," I doubt it would help them change.

A shirt that says "often wrong" suits me very well.

on the stoicism side, it involves accepting responsibility for the effects of your actions on the world. There is much you don't control, but your choices given that have created your world. I think there is a natural willfulness that strongly wants to deny this, but self reflection should always be guided by what is useful/helpful. So understanding how you have shaped the world helps you decide what to do now with what you immediately control.

it's unhelpful if you just tell yourself you should have done x, but helpful if you understand why and when you should do x in the future

"Assumes as little as possible" I will take no advice from this

Why? The more I think about it, the more I think they are correct.

I think you should. Almost everybody makes a lot of assumptions. And we are often not aware of them.

Feels more destructive than half the stuff on the bottom. No real solution to “I’m the problem with the world”

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Sure there is, you focus on changing you, not changing the world.

Alright, I’ll try it. How much and is shipping included?

Oh, and what is it? Does it come in Grape?

You’re wrong.

Which is fine if you're trying to focus on sticking to a diet or keeping your house clean, but is absolute dogshit when it comes to dealing with all of my bills doubling or facing bankruptcy because I went to the hospital.

Seeing society as an unchanging morally-neutral thing that isn't worth confronting or trying to change for the better at all isn't mature. It's selfish, short sighted, and only allows for a further worsening of said world.

https://www.viruscomix.com/subnormality.html

Comics with too many words... but well worth it you have the time.

Is there a high res PDF?

You don't get it. You're to blame for the unending hedonistic, greed-driven world we live in. You had the gall to come out in this world as a living, breathing, exoloitable human being.

Can someone explain the “obsessed with questioning” one to me. Questioning in what way? Why are they in between stages? (Yes I see the irony haha)

Imho the « obsessed with facts one » is in a wrong place. Because people obsessed with facts tend to see them as indisputable evidence that back their opinion. True wisdom sees the big picture whereas facts are just focused on a narrow reality.

Agreed. Should be "knows large companies and banks are literally destroying the world for profits", and needs a second goat stating "realizes big oil made up the myth to recycle and sort plastics as smokescreen for co2 fossil fuels" but I guess those are too long.

Love it

Or entirely stupid and not at all in the spirit of the image? You have class in the morning go to bed.

"Not in the spirit of the image" So plain old bullshit then? Got it.

I love the green goat who just wants to help.

I love how everybody is struggling to climb and one is just "built for climbing"

What would be better you think? "Loves doing research" or "loves using evidence based information" maybe?

The status GOAT

This is brilliant!

Why?

All that drip makes him a terrible climber unfortunately. A nice decoration though.

"It's everyone's fault!"

"It's not other people's fault, it's my fault."

Both are terrible.

I like this but reading it again for the millionth time I'm starting to see some flaws.

Obsessed with facts? Really? This reads like an arrogant newly found atheist proclaiming that the world and people can be broken down into objective truths while anyone with any life experience knows it really cant. (I'm atheist btw)

Blames self for the world? I may be misunderstanding here but the world is out of your control. Blaming yourself for the worlds problems is a great way to drive yourself completely insane.

On the other hand there are some good things in here. I like that one of the climbing goats is simply "built for climbing". Like there are some people who will naturally mature faster for whatever reason of their genetics or upbringing.

Isn't afraid to fail is a good one too. Anyone who wants to get anywhere in life needs to learn this.

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Once again you’re making it about “you” and not, “you changing for the world”. The world does not change for you. This leaves only one option.

Yes and my point is that "The world doesn't change for you" is a shitty, defeatist message that offloads all societal responsibility onto some vague "other" (or in some cases, just treats a terrible world as a noble and just thing that somehow proves how good it is). I know it's called the "is-ought distinction" in philosophy but I prefer the more general term "normative-descriptive shuffle". If your response to "This thing is bad" is to point out that that's just how things are, then all you're doing is carrying water for the people who make it bad in the first place. Think bigger.

To reflect and have understanding about something doesn’t mean you stay in that headspace forever. You are not locked in to any of those things at the top of the picture. Realizing your real power is in changing yourself doesn’t mean you don’t also try to shape the world around you. Knowing it is an impossible task doesn’t make humans stop trying.

How about "Blames no one"?

taking after noonien soong i see

the full context is obsessed with status/obsessed with questioning/obsessed with facts. perhaps there is a better phrasing for it "obsessed with wisdom"

Love it

goat shit, actually

Blames self for world?

I think no obsession is ever a good thing, because it views whatever is not the subject of its obsession as a flaw, which is the base of entitlement. Even obsession with balance is a terrible obsession.

Ayyyy gottem

I would say « open to debate » would probably be the right way to put it for me

I think the "afraid to fail" goat and its opposite are more about people that don't get started because they fear failure. There's also a toxic version of being so afraid to fail that you cut corners, lie, cheat, steal, put others in danger, or take excessive risks to avoid failing even when the risks are high and reward low.

The only one I disagree with is being afraid. It’s okay to be afraid

Why is 'knows everything at the bottom?' Its only immature if you rub it in people's faces

It's more "thinks they know everything". In reality no one knows everything. It's impossible.

ah, didn't get it. Now I do, it should really be that then

I think “obsessed with facts” is meant to be seen in the context of the two before it, “obsessed with status and obsessed with questioning”. The idea being, as one starts to think beyond themselves, it starts question and moves to understanding what makes for reasonable vs unreasonable responses to those questions.

Even in the context of religion, applying questioning and thinking about how two things that seem contradictory can come together. It’s important process that both builds faith and allows oneself to break with more cult like groups.

World is a really flexible word. It mean either global or localized. Obviously globally, all you can accept blame for is not being the change you want to see in the world. But more locally, while you can’t change others, any individual can have a lot of influence for what their life is.

It’s okay to be afraid, but it’s also true that fears holds us back. Fear isn’t the same as wisdom. Nor is it defined by recognizing danger. It’s only a perception of danger

Any obsession can go to far, but this is using the word more like “being driven towards”.

Like, fear isn’t necessarily a bad thing, just something to overcome every once in a while

That doesn’t seem very accurate

Being open to debate is only a virtue when the debate in question is worth having. Being open to debate in all things is a way to easily get dragged backwards into arguments over settled topics.

Debate is a tool to arrive at correct answers to hard questions. Once an answer is arrived at - and with enough rigor that the answer is reasonably certain to be correct - continuing to debate it is a poor use of one's time. There are other hard questions that need answering.

Would also fit perfectly in /r/wimmelbilder

This are very subjective cathegories themselves.

The world often is fucked up by choices that are beyond and before my actions. Just saying: stop changing the world" sometimes feels more like suck it up and accept the fucked up nature of our world.

Well that is true to an extent. I’m certainly not going to let it eat me alive. I have known the world will never be perfect, and accepted that it will always need to be worked on. It doesn’t mean I’m against working on it, just don’t expect perfection.

The trick is to accept it enough to not let it eat at you but to still want to change it.

That I agree with. For the most part, but we only have true power over ourselves. You do not have power over other people, and you never will.

Awkward wording. But it's just trying to say that your actions have consequences, and the environment around you is often a product of your behaviour. It's obviously not total - having a grumpy morning didn't start the war in Ukraine, but it might have made your breakfast conversation more unpleasant.

Fear is normal. It’s not bad or good. It’s just a normal human hinderance to clear thought. Like anger is something many people have to overcome, so is fear. Which, when done, can lead to wisdom.

Agreed. I really don't understand why "asks" is in immature. Asking questions to better understand things is very important.

Not sure if "blames self for the world" is mature but everything else is on point.

I think it’s the mindset of “yes the world is terrible. But it doesn’t absolve you of all the responsibility for your life, and how you act around others.”

Like being depressed due to a loved one dying doesn’t give you justification for pushing all your’s friends away and developing an alcohol addiction. Blame world for self would say that all of it was due to that loved one dying. Blame self for world realizes that they were the ones who personally drove others away, and they have the ability to change that still..

I beg to differ. Wanting the debate to end up with a « correct answer » is imho a narrow view of what could be the point of debate. Same with the question of wether the debate is worth having, you can’t say that « topic A » is not worth debating in an absolute sense. It may not be of interest to you, but could be of interest to someone else. Because essentially, what you’re saying is that philosophy shouldn’t exist.

> I beg to differ.

Oh dear.

> Wanting the debate to end up with a « correct answer » is imho a narrow view of what could be the point of debate.

I'm sure that there are other things that can be gained from debate beyond simply the correct answer to the question at hand - experience in argumentation, an increased sense of perspective or empathy for those on the other side, etc.

But you have to guard against people weaponizing the "virtue of debate" as a way of forcing the relitigation of settled topics in order to prevent progress.

For example, take climate change. There is essentially zero disagreement among those researching climate change that anthropogenic factors contribute significantly to climate change. And they got to that consensus in the first place through debate. But there are people (who aren't part of those professional research communities) who have a vested interest in constantly revisiting the debate on a society-wide level, because they don't like that the question is settled. And they know that if they can make it seem like the question is still open and still needs to be answered, they can force the professional research community into wasting its money, time, and energy on "debate" rather than progress.

The same holds true for gay marriage, evolutionary theory, gun control, etc.

When you allow the people on the losing side of a debate to perpetually insist on rematch after rematch, you rob yourself of the chance to actually get meaningful work done.

If you want experience debating, debate something worthwhile. If you want to gain empathy for groups you aren't a part of, listen to them.

> Same with the question of wether the debate is worth having, you can’t say that « topic A » is not worth debating in an absolute sense.

You can, at the societal level.

> It may not be of interest to you, but could be of interest to someone else.

That's great! Let them worry about finding someone to debate settled topics with. It isn't your moral or ethical obligation.

> Because essentially, what you’re saying is that philosophy shouldn’t exist.

Yikes.

You need to spend a lot more time thinking this through.

You’re the GOAT for posting this

This is not true. The power other people have over us that we are calling as "the way the world is" is the ultimate proof.

I think you meant Goatshit buddy. 😆

What in the boomer?

I think the picture needed to make a point in as few words as possible due to space limitations. There are bound to be some nuances that can’t be communicated.

Me zooming to see what area of the Altus Plateau I missed.

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Wow this photo is great.

"knows nothing" guys I think I'm mature

Ok I’m starting to understand your point of view. I was reasoning from a general standpoint, with no specific topic in mind, whereas you’re thinking from the perspective of specific stakes. I think we can probably agree that both debates and facts can be weaponised towards a specific agenda, and that neither of those attitudes are acceptable. My gripe with « facts » people is that they tend to only look at the facts that support their agenda, and your gripe with « debate » people is that they just don’t want to listen to the other opinion.

I guess I could reformulate then and instead of « open to debate », a better choice of words could be « true to his convictions ». It’s a bit different but I think it’s a mature thing to be truthful.

Edit: note that being truthful to your convictions doesn’t mean to be obsessed by them, but rather to live them truthfully

That’s not from people working together against you. That is a conglomeration of everyone who will always be competing to be on top. There is not some imaginary boogie man making the world this way. It is because of the fact that we cannot control people, and free enterprise and freewill always brings some level of chaos. You can try for Utopia or La la land dreaming. Im a realist. The way it has always been is how it will always be. In perpetual cycles of good vs evil. The ying and yang, baby! Get some!!

you just smoked yourself out! (see "scornes others efforts")

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There's a goat at the top studying a huge pile of books saying "knows nothing". The one at the bottom only thinks they know everything while the one who is actually very well educated is humble. They didn't really make all of these obvious at a quick glance

No, but you can support the artist and buy a print.

Thanks. But wanted it as a desktop wall paper, Saved image - better on desktop than mobile view.

I would move "blames self for world" to the climb.