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Dendad6972 t1_iteisn6 wrote

Sounds good but nobody purposely debates thinking their way is going to fuck things up.

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seminally_me t1_itfs0fa wrote

But they do defend dying on those hills without entertaining other opinions than their own. That's the difference.

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straight-lampin OP t1_itenioq wrote

I refuse to believe that all the hate vitriol coming from people's mouths is best effort to be kind. Or any effort at all really.

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Dendad6972 t1_itepwfq wrote

Their thinking is it's better at least for them.

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longleggedbirds t1_itfdaf9 wrote

Some people in good faith believe that the world is corrupt and resources can only be spread so far. Blah blah blah tragedy of the commons. And if not that then they know how to exploit systems and Nader stand other people all do it too, so why penalize yourself.
Getting into it with either attitude/philosophy hasn’t Changed anyone’s mind because they believe in getting theirs and personal good. And I want to at least humor collective good, but collectives are hard to draw together over time. At least it does inform you of who to protect yourself from.

P.s. being generous with kindness is an amazing gift to have. Feed that instinct!

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subzero112001 t1_itfn9iz wrote

People ARE trying to make things better. Better for themselves mostly.

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Fearfultick0 t1_itgttm2 wrote

If someone is debating in good faith, they’re willing to learn from the other side. In any debate, both sides will make good points and both sides can learn. If everyone is willing to listen, while putting their best arguments forward, everyone would make progress. While this all sounds good in theory, people typically don’t participate in formal methods of debate, people naturally fall into bubbles, people often don’t debate in good faith, and much of the content we consume is given spin to fit a given narrative. We have a lot of work to do to improve society. It takes more than debating to get there, but debate is essential to gaining knowledge, which is essential to making progress.

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tianavitoli t1_iti3zun wrote

even this is subject to the immediate dismissal of good faith, because if they didn't learn anything, they must not have been debating in good faith.

And by learn something, I mean accommodating my beliefs in lieu of your own.

or to oversimplify: if you don't agree with me you are acting in bad faith

that sounds oddly familiar to the status quo we have now.

it only creates the incentive to be disingenuous first, before the other party can be.

and this is a genuine problem. every system based on rules will always be subject to the exploitation by those who discover they gain distinct and often insurmountable advantage by breaking the rules.

good faith is not enough.

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Fearfultick0 t1_iti4fgz wrote

Are you saying that I’m saying that if they don’t agree with me then they’re arguing in bad faith? Are you making a straw man of me? Are you arguing in bad faith!! This is why debate will never be enough. People get too bogged down in BS

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tianavitoli t1_itigwch wrote

no no no no, don't get me wrong. i'm not saying that you're saying if they don't agree with you they're acting in bad faith. i'm saying that i'm saying that they're acting in bad faith that's why they're disagreeing with you. not like a chicken and egg thing, but more like and egg and chicken thing.

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Fearfultick0 t1_itihuxh wrote

Yeah I guess there’s got to be more to bad faith than just whether or not they agree it’s more about like the attitude and approach to the debate.

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tianavitoli t1_itinu82 wrote

or maybe it's less about talking and more about walking. honestly it seems like most debate is two people arguing to be right about some change or development they aren't participating in effecting, and those who are aren't sincere in effecting it anyways.

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Fearfultick0 t1_itirmti wrote

Yeah, as far as fixing the world goes, walking the walk is incredibly important. That’s something I struggle with in my own life. I do all this reading and learning but what can I do to help?

That said, debate isn’t just about fixing the world, it’s largely be about learning and finding the truth. I’ve learned just from this discussion on Reddit. People have to construct arguments when they write the articles and books we read. Debate is quite fundamental to the dissemination of knowledge, which is what we base our decisions on.

Many of us are completely uninvolved with politics, so I see what you’re saying as basically apathy leads to poor debate etiquette. Since people don’t feel like they have an impact on the world they aren’t motivated to care about the debate. But people in power can also be stubborn. It doesn’t necessarily come down to investment in the topic, but I think subconscious interpersonal dynamics and emotions play a large role in one’s debate style and willingness to learn and listen.

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tianavitoli t1_itixhgn wrote

i believe that's right, which is why the answer for me always comes back around to personal development, self improvement through self reflection.

not exactly my idea, there are many different well known people who've said the same. this has been validated in my own experience is all.

i'm of the opinion right now that... maybe the best way to express is is actually from a mary ann williamson poem, to paraphrase

people aren't afraid of their darkness, they're afraid being successful will alienate them from those they care about. this is actually against our inner nature, we were made to be prosperous, whatever that means evolution, creation, it doesn't matter. everything about us is emblematic of prosperity. somewhere along the way we got the wrong idea, reaching for our goals, pursuing our potential, it unconsciously inspires, motivates, and gives permission to others to do the same. this is what we were designed to do.

so hey look, do you. people notice the changes, it makes them happy. we can't directly influence those in power, but we can influence those who might assume the role tomorrow. not through coercion or emotional manipulation, but through resisting it, by being able to navigate the sea of life successfully and maintain a (more or less) healthy optimism. again, other people said this best so i'm just going to use their words:

"don't wish it was easier, wish you were better. don't wish for less problems, wish for more skills. don't wish for the wind to change, that's what they call naiive. wish for the wisdom to set a better sail, let the wind take you where you want to go in life"

- Jim Rohn

he would also say something like the world stays the same. we kinda cycle through the same conversations over and over again. somebody comes up with some idea they feel passionately about that doesn't know it was already tried so they go on a crusade to change the world for the better. i tend to suffer from the opposite, i look and see other people already did it, and i hate feeling like i'm copying other people so i tend not to do things, even though it's obvious there's plenty of room in the world to stake a claim to something, and i have enough competence to be successful in things and people like competence so i will be successful. example: my friend back in 2013 said the real money in crypto would be operating an exchange. there was already coinbase bittrex bitfinex, bitmex, etc and they seemed to be well enough established so i dismissed the idea. fuck me, that was a great idea, since then we've got bybit, ftx, deribit, circle, voyager, and a whole bunch of other shitty exchanges that are all making a lot of money. we probably would have failed, it's not like we know anything, but it was a great idea.

i remember some friend told me about some book he read, i don't remember, eastern philosophy stuff. actually i've heard alan watts say this too. at some point you have to realize you've got the juice inside you and just run with it. the teacher will poke fun of and mock the student until the student realizes the teacher is full of shit too, and just start running with it. i like this, the spiritual principles are really simple, sometimes the pursuit of knowledge becomes an escape from the responsibility of having it.

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Durdyb15 t1_itgvjtv wrote

They do if the right amount of money is backing them.

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