[deleted] t1_j8euhmo wrote
Reply to comment by Talldarkn67 in 7 international companies have teamed with the EU to form the International Hyperloop Association, the industry's first trade body. by lughnasadh
Instead of building high speed rail, a technology that we know works, your solution is to build something even more expensive and impractical.
Talldarkn67 t1_j8ez6xi wrote
You forgot potentially much faster, better for the environment a leap forward in technology. Yeah, that would suck. Much better to keep copy pasting….🤡
JCPRuckus t1_j8fk3zl wrote
>... potentially
>Yeah, that would suck.
Yes, if it failed to live up to the potential that would suck. Which is an eventuality that you are clearly not accounting for adequately.
Talldarkn67 t1_j8flkxk wrote
You sound like the people in the 1800s that thought if you traveled faster than 100mph you’d go crazy. We currently live in a boring version of what the world used to be. People used to get excited about new technology and didn’t care what it took to make real progress and move humanity forward. Now, we have people like you who are focused on replicating what is, rather than thinking about what could be. We seem to be devolving as a species. You’re a perfect example of that. As are all the rest of your downvoting friends.
Good thing the Japanese didn’t think like you in 1964 or we wouldn’t have HSR either….
JCPRuckus t1_j8fpd85 wrote
>You sound like the people in the 1800s that thought if you traveled faster than 100mph you’d go crazy.
I didn't say anything remotely like that. And by leading off with a total misrepresentation of what I said all you've done is demonstrate exactly how bad faith your position is.
All I said is that it well might fail to be better than HSR (either in absolute terms or for the money) and be a waste of money.
Therefore, until such time as we've actually built some small scale projects that show its better, we should continue building technologies that are known quantities.
>We currently live in a boring version of what the world used to be. People used to get excited about new technology and didn’t care what it took to make real progress and move humanity forward. Now, we have people like you who are focused on replicating what is, rather than thinking about what could be.
Again, not even remotely like anything I said. We don't "live in a boring version of what the world used to be". We live in a world where lots of those ideas people had turned out to be impractical and unworkable, so they never got built... I'm all for moonshots. I'm just also for admitting that most moonshot ideas either fail completely, or vastly underdeliver. Which is why they are "moonshots" and not "Plan A".
>We seem to be devolving as a species. You’re a perfect example of that. As are all the rest of your downvoting friends.
You can't even have a civil discussion with someone who disagrees with you. You have no room to claim anyone else is "devolved".
>Good thing the Japanese didn’t think like you in 1964 or we wouldn’t have HSR either….
Again, I said a few sentences to you. I don't have to answer for these positions that you have dreamt up for me based on 2 or 3 sentences.
Talldarkn67 t1_j8fvac4 wrote
“All I said was that we well might fail”. That sentence let me know how you think. People that think like that fail immediately since they don’t want to even try. In fact that type of thinking is lower than failure, since failure actually involves trying first.
I’m glad they are trying to build hyperloop. Whether it fails or not. At least we are trying something new. Not rehashing the accomplishments of previous generations.
Maurauderr t1_j8fxr5i wrote
What about the maglev technology? Yes it is a bit older but we are currently seeing a major improvement in the way that it is built. The big problem with hyperloop is that just a shift in tectonic plates or one lose screw could ruin the entire system. It also need unreal amounts of energy to function and we currently have that. Also, if the pod has just one flaw in design or a tiny hole, it can endanger everybody in the pod and maybe the few pods behind it.
That said, I like the idea of hyperloop itself and the fact that we are doing research into it. The thing is that right now we have more pressing issues and that research should not be our main priority. Our main priority should be to get down in our greenhouse gas emissions as quickly as possible and technologies like HSR and Maglev should be our focus + a large reduction in cars, etc. The hyperloop will be a fun project for after we have completed our most pressing issues.
Also, why not spend more money on Maglev research? It has the potential to rival air travel much sooner than hyperloop. Just purely the fact that Japan manged to reach 600km/h shows that. If we put more money into that we might reach even higher speeds.
Also, if you go up in the comments a bit, you will find that the idea of vac trains is quite old already so also nothing new.
Talldarkn67 t1_j8g72t7 wrote
The idea where building HSR everywhere will stop people from buying/driving cars, or using existing modes of transportation. Is not connected to reality. At least not in my experience of seeing HSR being built everywhere.
Take China for example. They have built the most extensive HSR network in the world. They go almost anywhere in China. Has it stopped people there from buying or driving cars? No, in fact China is the worlds largest car market. They literally buy more cars than any other country. I lived there for tens years and trust me, everyone that can afford to buy a car does. I had to drive from Suzhou to Shanghai many, many times for work. There is an HSR between the two but there was always traffic both ways. The highways were full of people driving instead of taking the HSR. Not because it’s cheaper or faster but because it’s more comfortable and convenient than HSR. Not to mention the fact that so few people use all the HSR they’ve built, that it loses hundreds of billions per year. It’s such a boondoggle that multiple heads of HSR in China have committed suicide. For longer trips most people prefer to take a plane and for shorter trips they more often than not drive. Also, they still have normal and cheaper trains which poorer locals usually take because they can’t afford to take the HSR.
That’s what I saw in China. You can confirm it all with casual research on the topic. I don’t think building HSR everywhere is the solution people think it is. At least that has not been the case for China. I doubt it would be much different elsewhere.
Maurauderr t1_j8gr6oy wrote
I never claimed that it would stop it. I claimed that it would reduce it, which it does. Something like induced demand on street just brings more people to take the car and does nothing against congestion etc. Giving a good rail system encourages people to take the train.
Also, in regard to your experience in China I did some digging and found this:
-2,1 billion rail passengers passengers (2013), growth of 5.5% per year between 2000 and 2013
-Bejing-Tianjin HSR: 16 million in first year (2008)
-Fares vary between 0.045$/passenger km for 200-250km/h and 0.77$/per passenger km for 300-350km/h (which actually is more expensive than Germany (0.34$/p.km) and France (0.24-0.31$/p.km) so the argument "it is only used by the poor kinda falls short)
-Rail passenger amount grew by 7.6% annually between 2008 & 2013
- The two busiest lines carried 100 million each in 2014 -rail trips are almost double the amount than air trips in 2013
-for short trips (<300km) cars or busses are competitive because HSR stations are a decent way away from the town centre
- Rail traffic grew by 39% between 2008 and 2014 while conventional traffic grew by 1.5%
-According to a survey from May 2013 the income range on the Changchun-Jilin line was at about 4,300$/m (70% reported an income of below 5,000$/m), Tianjin-Jinan between 6,700$ and 4,500$/m (50%reported an income of less than 5000$/m) so again.
- The most profitable route (Shanghai-Beijing) brought in 1 billion$ in revenue in 2015
-Most people are actually not able to afford HSR in China (at least were in 2015)
-for trips of 500km or less air companies were forced to lower Fares or cancel flights because of the HSR
- total income in 2021 was about 705 million USD (56.5% lower than 2019)
-Due to Covid 19 and strict lock downs profits plummeted 159% to a loss of 4.4 billion USD
-The HSR system has a total of 1.9 billion passengers annually.
For the sake of the argument I only focused myself on HSR and passenger travel in comparison.
References https://www.statista.com/topics/7534/high-speed-rail-in-china/#topicOverview
https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-high-speed-rail-development-worldwide
http://www.worldbank.org/content/dam/Worldbank/document/EAP/China/high_speed-rail-%20in-china-en.pdf
Edit: When you said only poorer people use the HSR you were probably referring to the conventional rail (200-250km/h) and not 300-350km/h
JCPRuckus t1_j8g19vp wrote
>“All I said was that we well might fail”. That sentence let me know how you think. People that think like that fail immediately since they don’t want to even try. In fact that type of thinking is lower than failure, since failure actually involves trying first.
Except I didn't say we shouldn't try. I ignoring things that we know work in the meantime doesn't make any sense.
Again, you're putting words in my mouth.
>In fact that type of thinking is lower than failure, since failure actually involves trying first.
Get over yourself. You can't even read and reply to what I actually say. You aren't superior to anyone.
>I’m glad they are trying to build hyperloop. Whether it fails or not. At least we are trying something new.
I never said they shouldn't. I said that forgoing HSR on the hope that maybe Hyperloop will be feasible, much less better, one day is stupid.
>Not rehashing the accomplishments of previous generations.
Again, you don't seem to understand the difference between "trying" something and "banking on" it. It's not bad to have things that actually work while you're trying to do new things.
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