Submitted by ForHidingSquirrels t3_10xwl7q in Futurology
JGCities t1_j7v5416 wrote
Reply to comment by user_dan in Renewables are on track to satiate the world's appetite for electricity by ForHidingSquirrels
We could have been 100% nuclear decades ago but it was the greens who shut down building of all new nuclear plants.
Ironic.
[deleted] t1_j7vaemf wrote
Nah, it was just nuclear cost too much and couldn't compete without constant government subsidies. Money rules the world bro, if nuclear could make good money all the public complaining would mean jack and shit just like it does with medicine.
The Levelized Cost Of Electric for nuclear is just too high compared to gas or coal over the years. Nuclear is so complex it could never get the cost down and while it may seem simple enough to be like BUt GLOBal WARmING could have been prevented, that's questionable since power plants are just one part of the problem AND you're still talking about killing a lot of people with high energy costs.
Plus there is near zero chance most of the world, aka the developing world, even has an option to go nuclear. Talk about lack of energy independance, imagine buying into a power model that only like 3 countries sell. That would suck and that's only if their countries allow the export in the first place, a policy that could change at any moment. It's easy to see why most nations that don't have gas would go with coal, because unless you're the country making the nuclear reactor AND you're ok paying 2-3 times more for power AND you waive the added risks/costs of meltdown and pollution storage... it kind of sucks. There is also a bit of a water use problem as we saw as rivers in Europe got low, so all that would have to be fixed too.
That's a lot of money going to nuclear, which isn't improving rapidly, that is better spent pushing batteries and renewables.. which also have WAY WAY more uses than nuclear since you can expot them all over the world and install them in your home or power computers and robots with better batteries. There is a lot more vertical integration benefits where many products can benefit at once from something like solar and batteries and not much beside power plants for nuclear.
The problem is investors don't invest in nuclear and they don't because the return on investment takes way too long and it takes way too long because the cost to operate the plant is too high..
That's what LCOE means, so you if you cared you would know the LCOE on nuclear is too high to replace gas and coal without MAJOR economic slowdowns.
All that and then solar and batteries still keep getting better and their LCOE drops below nuclear and you're left with a bunch of nuclear reactors nobody can run cost effectively.
THAT is why nuclear died.. complexity = costs.. which is 100% predictable and obvious so your brain should really not need to create some secondary excuse. Costs are only like THE MOST IMPORTANT single factor in everything, so the only way you can be surprised nuclear failed is because you paid no attention to the costs of each power generation model.. aka you basically aren't interested in power generation buy want to have a say.
The data is SUPER easy to find, so I don't see a good excuse to not realize costs are what sunk nuclear.
If not then how did the same pattern happen all over the world? You're telling me the citizens of every country all kind of agreed nuclear was a bad idea and that's the reason it didn't catch on, not the fact it's 2-3 times more to run?
You basically need to invent a global conspiracy for that to make sense. It wasn't just one public, it was ALL the publics in all the nations. Sorry, but that's smells like BS.. it was the high complexity and cost and the fact renewables and batteries are improving far faster than nuclear.
The thing people don't get is that the best way to generate power will ALWAYS be the simplest way with reasonable costs than can be scaled globally and nuclear is none of those!
We don't need unlimited power. We just need the simplest way to meet global power needs. the simpler method that can accomplish that goal will win out because over time costs will always scale in favor of lower complexity. Less moving parts = less costs and nuclear is a lot of moving parts.
Viper_63 t1_j7vhyxd wrote
>You basically need to invent a global conspiracy for that to make sense.
The consensus in those circles seems to be that environmental groups/"the greens"/[party or group of choice you don't like] where all funded by the fossil fuel industry and the Soviet Union Russia to make nuclear look bad. I shit you not that what's I've seen people arguing on this subreddit.
no bro nuclear would totally be economic and viable if we would just poured more funds into it. Trust me bro, the key to making nuclear finally work is to build smaller and less efficient plants.
Like, have you actually looked at the subsidies nuclear has received? Granted this is nearly a decade old, but it's not like the situation has changed all that much:
It's not like we haven't already established that 100% renewables is viable:
>Recent studies show that a global transition to 100% renewable energy across all sectors – power, heat, transport and desalination well before 2050 is feasible. According to a review of the 181 peer-reviewed papers on 100% renewable energy that were published until 2018, "[t]he great majority of all publications highlights the technical feasibility and economic viability of 100% RE systems." A review of 97 papers published since 2004 and focusing on islands concluded that across the studies 100% renewable energy was found to be "technically feasible and economically viable." A 2022 review found that the main conclusion of most of the literature in the field is that 100% renewables is feasible worldwide at low cost.
>Existing technologies, including storage, are capable of generating a secure energy supply at every hour throughout the year. The sustainable energy system is more efficient and cost effective than the existing system. The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) stated in their 2011 report that there is little that limits integrating renewable technologies for satisfying the total global energy demand.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100%25_renewable_energy
The IPCC pointed this out over a decade ago.
Viper_63 t1_j7vitbj wrote
>We could have been 100% nuclear decades ago but it was the greens who shut down building of all new nuclear plants.
That's pure misinformation.
https://phys.org/news/2011-05-nuclear-power-world-energy.html
Nuclear basically isn't scalable beyond 1 TW globally. Geothermal energy alone has twice that potential. Nuclear is pretty much a dead end as far terrestial utility-scale use is concerned.
Blaming "[political group you don't like]" for the issues inherent to the technology isn't going to solve anything.
[deleted] t1_j7vmiqp wrote
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rileyoneill t1_j7xx5ne wrote
No. The hippies did zero damage to the nuclear industry. It was all WallStreet as the nuclear industry had constantly rising costs and weaker than expected long term earnings.
Any new nuke plant today will not be commercially viable in 10-15 years.
[deleted] t1_j7v84nn wrote
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ForHidingSquirrels OP t1_j7xherz wrote
Nuclear was failing in the US in the early 70s long before ‘the greensa’. Low knowledge nuclearvangelists say this because they don’t accept reality.
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