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undefined7196 t1_jab1tn0 wrote

Reply to comment by Iffykindofguy in Either we're past the great filter, or ASI IS the great filter by Shoddy-Motor

How so? Unless there is some other driving factor of turning simple life into complex intelligent beings other than evolution through natural selection, then this is the only logical path. Not only that, but we also see it happening to us, the only intelligent life we can observe, so we know it does happen in 100% of our samples.

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ForescytheGiant t1_jab4xwr wrote

I think the “other driving factor” could be the idea, for example, that “might does not make right”. That there must be something about consciousness/sentience, perspective of other- or even more metaphysically, an observation of “oneness” at the highest order or something - a baseline rightness, that comes alongside the capability to choose and evaluate the path. That simply to be able to dominate isn’t the point of everything. And, I hope that ASI/AGI will be able to observe that.

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undefined7196 t1_jab8hoq wrote

Any form of AI will be the product of the mind that creates it. All forms of basic AI we have, has all of our biases and beliefs because AI has to be taught and it is taught by its creator. We could possibly find a way around this but I don't see how. I build "AI" models for a living. You have to train the models on something or else they are useless, the only thing we have to train them on is ourselves.

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Porkinson t1_jaewe1s wrote

Maybe in the future you could train an AI from just predicting what happens on its surroundings. Just like you can make an ai that predicts the next token of text.

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undefined7196 t1_jaexo9d wrote

Perhaps, but those surroundings would inevitably have human influence. I suppose you could make a simulated world and put simulated AI in it, you would need many entities so they could learn empathy and interaction with other beings. It would work similarly to a GAN (Generative Adversarial Network). Where the AI entities compete and that is what drives the learning. Then you just don't allow any human interference at all, just AI vs AI interactions. That could work.

That being said though, that could be what we are experiencing right now. We may be those entities being simulated to create a pure AI in a simulated environment. It would be identical to what we are experiencing, and we ended up being manipulative and destructive on our own.

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Iffykindofguy t1_jab606b wrote

How so? You ask that before deciding all potential intelligent life MUST have come out the same exact way you think yours did. Its way too self-referential

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undefined7196 t1_jab71e2 wrote

> Unless there is some other driving factor of turning simple life into complex intelligent beings other than evolution through natural selection

And perhaps there is, but life, as we know it, can only be a product of mutation and selection. There is no evidence to suggest it can form in any other way. If you have some evidence, or even a general idea of a possible way, feel free to present it.

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Iffykindofguy t1_jabcaf5 wrote

So youre just relying on a species never growing past its base instincts yet somehow becoming capable of space travel?

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undefined7196 t1_jabfhev wrote

We are capable of space travel and have not grown past our basic instincts. Again, you are welcome to provide evidence or even a general idea of a process that would lead to a different outcome. Currently, you are just “nut uh”ing me without providing even so much as a pulled out of your ass hypothetical of another way it could happen. Possibility must be demonstrated. If there is another possible path, demonstrate it.

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Iffykindofguy t1_jacqv8o wrote

What? Some of us have. Just because were still struggling with it doesnt mean we wont get over it, though if the gop takes over in the next election cycle well be set back 100 years. We are not capable of space travel right now in the sense you're discussing you silly little goose. Unless I missed us being able to get people past the moon? Did I?

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undefined7196 t1_jacruzq wrote

And again, not a single piece of evidence or even a general idea of how it can happen any other way. Just more bold ass assertions and nut uhs

And no, none of us have. Poverty leads to crime because everyone will take from their fellow man for personal survival. You will, I will, we all will because that is who we have evolved to be. Our instincts lead to lust, greed, self preservation, depression, fear, anger, jealousy. Give me a single example of a person who has overcome all of that. Stop making assertions that you refuse to back up with examples.

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Iffykindofguy t1_jacswbn wrote

Uhhhhhhhhhh what assertations have you backed up? You are making huge claims about the entirety of humanity and just stating them as if theyre fact and then ignoring everything I say and screaming that Im not doing the same. Poverty leads to crime because of a whole host of reasons. Our instincts dont lead to any of that, our society forces our hand to those options currently unless you're lucky enough to have been taught otherwise. If poverty was all it took to get to crime we would have hundreds of thousands of murders each day. You come across as someone who read some "facts" in middle school that disturbed them and never bothred to learn anymore.

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undefined7196 t1_jactlyi wrote

Jesus Christ dude. A single example of a person who has overcome their instincts please.

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Iffykindofguy t1_jactqtw wrote

Literally every human ever who didnt kill someone when they got angry enough to? Or every human ever who didnt steal something because they were slightly hungry in that moment.

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I mean its like talking to a 6th grader.

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undefined7196 t1_jada9pj wrote

>Our instincts lead to lust, greed, self preservation, depression, fear, anger, jealousy. Give me a single example of a person who has overcome all of that.

Every human who didn't steal something because they were slightly hungry overcame lust, jealousy, greed, fear, anger and depression? What are you talking about? I'm like talking to a 6th grader? Can you even read like a 6th grader? I'll ask again. Directly. Give me a single example of a person who has overcome all of their instincts. To be clear, not one of them in a certain situation, all of them, always. Someone who does not act on their instincts. To be clear again, not some vague statement. Not some bold assertion that people do it all the time. A specific person where their instincts do not control them at all. Just one example. One name. A person. A person's name. For the love of god! If you are saying people do it all the time, then give me one fucking example. Quit just boldly asserting it. A name. Give me a name.

And don't personally attack me and insult my intelligence because you cannot even fucking read.

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Iffykindofguy t1_jadandf wrote

HAHAHAHAHA still digging huh. Do you think this is a dm? Do you not know other people can read both of our interactions? I keep providing you with answers you just dont like emotionally.

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undefined7196 t1_jadaujp wrote

Answers? Where is the name!?!? Quit dodging the question. Give me a name, or admit people don't do it. Stop dodging the question.

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Iffykindofguy t1_jadb38u wrote

Anyone who isnt in jail for murder rn.

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undefined7196 t1_jadbpsb wrote

Are you fucking kidding me? You are not in jail. You never feel lust, greed, self preservation, depression, fear, anger, jealousy? Do I need to restate the question a 20th time?

>Our instincts lead to lust, greed, self preservation, depression, fear, anger, jealousy. Give me a single example of a person who has overcome all of that.

"all of that."

"ALL of that"

Did you read it that time? Understand the question. If your example feels any of those things, it does not answer the question. Jesus fucking christ.

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Iffykindofguy t1_jadhkd0 wrote

Youre asking me for someone who didnt give into their instincts. We all do that, every single day of our lives.

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undefined7196 t1_jadi7gn wrote

Exactly. Why did this take you so long to admit? I could not have been clearer on my question the 5 times I had to ask it. So we agree, that no one has overcome their instincts right? We agree on that? We have no example of it happening and no valid reason to think it can happen outside of pure hopefulness. Correct?

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Iffykindofguy t1_jadj4ij wrote

Are you drunk? What part of that comes off as me agreeing with you? We overcome our instincts every single day. We've been overcoming them ever since society first formed.

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