Submitted by keghi11 t3_zx86z9 in Futurology
MrZwink t1_j1z3xhu wrote
Can't be done, heisenbergs uncertainty principle. Mr Kaku knows this. He just likes to fantasize in the media.
You cannot make a copy of a brain because it would need to copy all particles, and the their interactions at the same time to "image" the brain. But one cannot measure where a particle is and what it is doing at the same time. Because the measurements disturbing the interactions.
This is something enherent to quantum mechanics, and not a solvable issue to overcome.
Desperate_Food7354 t1_j1zz98p wrote
Wouldn’t this also just apply to regular computers and we can already do that?
MrZwink t1_j20227p wrote
No, you make a copy of the hard drive. Not the entire computer while it's running.
Desperate_Food7354 t1_j202qhc wrote
I think it’s very possible given CPU architecture if you do the entire snapshot with one clock cycle.
MrZwink t1_j208zby wrote
You would need to know where electrons are and what they are doing in the processor. And you run into the same problem.
Desperate_Food7354 t1_j20aais wrote
everything happens in discrete clock cycles, at any moment you can know where every bit of data is inside of a CPU, the transfer only happens during the next clock cycle in which the bits move around, of course, humans are analogue so that is much more complex, but with computers I see it as already feasible.
MrZwink t1_j20bkon wrote
Humans and computers are both complex chains of quantum interactions. It is impossible to separate the computer (or human) from it's quantum states.
Desperate_Food7354 t1_j20ce8p wrote
The information within a computer is stored in gates, it isn’t on the micro scale of quantum events. You do not need to know what is going on in the atomic realm of a computer to understand it’s transfer of data, it is completely deterministic. Accept this as fact in regards to computers as this is a fully understood construct we created.
MrZwink t1_j20gart wrote
Then what is a random bit flip?
Desperate_Food7354 t1_j20hgxj wrote
Bit flips are random but are very unlikely to occur in the millisecond it would require to transfer all stored registers into another computer. Also if you transferred the data underground and in low temperature the chances are essentially 0 here. Computers are extremely simple machines when you look at the components.
MrZwink t1_j20hmht wrote
But WHAT are they?
Desperate_Food7354 t1_j20j9qr wrote
Computers are just the logic of transistors in order to perform arithmetic. It’s in binary because a transistor can either be off or on in the digital sense. If we we’re talking about analog you’d have somewhat of a point but because computers work in either 0 or 1 this isn’t the case. If you look at a cpu architecture video you’ll see just how simple they are and how easily this idea of transferring every state in a computer all at once could be done.
MrZwink t1_j20m0jb wrote
They're usually quantum interactions interfering with the computers operation. Usually nutritions
Desperate_Food7354 t1_j20pjme wrote
With the amount of quantum you are spilling out computers shouldn’t work at all.
MrZwink t1_j20rskb wrote
What are you on about, computers work on quantum principles...
Desperate_Food7354 t1_j20shbq wrote
Quantum quantum quantum, a transistor is ON or OFF, the only quantum thing here is quantum tunneling and that is only a problem in the development of smaller transistor sizes. My expertise is in this and you keep spilling quantum out like it changes the register values. Register values remain the same, you obviously have no idea how the inside of a computer works nor digital logic if you are going to say quantum mechanics makes duplicating all the states within a computer impossible. It isn’t how much liquid is in a tank, it’s whether there is x amount of liquid in a tank to reach the threshold of whether it’s a 1 or a 0, 1 or 0, we build computers that have a processing speed of 10^18 calculations per second, none of what you are saying applies in reality.
MrZwink t1_j20tvw0 wrote
A transtor is a semi conductor. It moves electrons through a semipermeable barrier. This is an interaction at a quantum level. The smaller you make them the more prone to quantum tunneling they become. So no a transistor is not on or off, 0.001% of the time it's both or neither.
There are safeguards in place in computers to check for random bit flips because it is needed. It's called hashing.
Im not saying computers don't work. I'm saying a computer is a machine that processes information on a quantum level. And it is impossible to separate the computer from it's quantum interactions. Heisenbergs uncertainty principle applies wether you want it or not.
You cannot build a house without bricks.
Desperate_Food7354 t1_j20xvsi wrote
I could transfer every bit in my 8 bit computer in a single clock cycle no problem. Computers work in discrete time increments with no uncertainty to when the crystal oscillator will be on or off.
Zaflis t1_j229y8i wrote
It doesn't have to be 100% identical transfer to be fully recognizable by others and the person him/herself. Also i won't be using the word copy because when you "move" a file the original is lost. So is the brain in this case. If we talk about it as a copy then it's not an improved "you" but a new entity entirely. Ideally you could still think uninterrupted during the transfer process, in all points from 0% to 100%. Needless to say for science being able to do that all is still too far in the future.
MrZwink t1_j22lfx8 wrote
This is exactly what heisenbergs uncertainty principle prevents.
Zaflis t1_j2323rb wrote
You are now assuming that every atom has to be copied with the exact same position and speed or something? But that is not correct. When you copy a limb, say a human arm to another person, it will still work even if it's different in a lot of ways. Accuracy can be improved but the copy is not, nor need to be too precise. And when you go into the computer representation, the format of data is already drastically different.
MrZwink t1_j23ugwm wrote
An arm is not concious. If you cant copy the processes going on in the brain you cant copy the consciousness.
Zaflis t1_j24qfid wrote
You only need to copy the stored information, not anything that is being moved at the time. Like harddrives and RAM but anything that CPU is processing now is irrelevant, if we compare RAM to the short term memory that changes more aggressively than long term memory.
MrZwink t1_j24s80m wrote
The brain doesn't work like that. It's constantly exchanging information, and forming new connections. There is no "off" switch.
Jetison333 t1_j20jma3 wrote
Your actualy pretty much correct. It's impossible to make a perfect clone of an atom, as you would have to know it's momentum and position at the same time, it's called the no cloning theorem. However what you can do is move that state from one atom to another, effectively just transferring it.
Incidentally this solves the whole uploading problem, as a perfect copy of your brain would neccesarily destroy the original.
MrZwink t1_j20m791 wrote
I love it how you say that like it's a surprise. I know I'm correct. I'm probably getting a lot of downvotes because I really don't likes kaku's unsubstantiated blabbering. And it shows.
While you're right about 1 atom. A brain is more than that. You can copy the entire brain. But anything in "active" memory would be destroyed. There are millions on quantum interactions ongoing at any one time. But then this is essentially the same problem. You have to choose: measure the state, or the interactions.
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