CardboardSoyuz t1_j0l8rcm wrote on December 17, 2022 at 2:45 PM

Reply to comment by danmilligan in The Reality of Universal Basic Income Future by Prototype47

“The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design. To the naive mind that can conceive of order only as the product of deliberate arrangement, it may seem absurd that in complex conditions order, and adaptation to the unknown, can be achieved more effectively by decentralizing decisions and that a division of authority will actually extend the possibility of overall order. Yet that decentralization actually leads to more information being taken into account.” - Hayek

danmilligan t1_j0ldv0s wrote on December 17, 2022 at 3:25 PM

Lol Hayek. Yeah leaving things to the market has worked so well for regular people. Order is not enough. We have an order now where the rich get all the benefits of the planet's resources, which are being quickly exhausted. Why should we accept that order? The only alternative we have is to MAKE a better order, like, on purpose.

CardboardSoyuz t1_j0m82i7 wrote on December 17, 2022 at 6:59 PM

Hayek's point, of course, is that you cannot make a better order. No group can. And the attempt to do so leads, inexorably, to deprivation and tyranny.

The unalterable fact is that nothing has gotten more people out of extreme poverty than capitalism. In fact, before capitalism and the industrial revolution, everything in human history was pretty much shit. Is there all kinds of crony shit that goes down? Of course. And there's much to be done to stop it.

Now I take a decidedly broad view of what the "free market" is -- so don't at me with "But the Labor Unions!" -- I happen to believe organizing is as fundamental a right as the right to enter into a contract (both my grandfathers were proud union tradesmen, printing and steel) and needs to be protected just like contracts need to be enforced. I happily include labor movements as part of how the market can and ought to organize itself. I am not opposed to some forms of regulation, or even progressive taxation (to a point) but the default should always be to have a light hand on the till and let the market do its thing.

You do not know what will make the world better. Nor do I. Nor does that fellow over there. But more than anything even if it could work I am unalterably opposed to it because if a committee is making decisions, my livelihood would then demand upon my power within the state (and my ability to sit through committee meetings) instead of my own labor.

So thank you but no.

Meep3r t1_j0mxl72 wrote on December 17, 2022 at 9:58 PM

Well the point of ai is that it can replace labor. What kind of contract can truck drivers enter into with companies if they have self driving cars?

Additionally, I fail to see how the inability to create a better order in the past necessarily means that we can’t create a better order in the future? Capitalism is better than any system in the past. That doesn’t mean we can’t try to change it though. It doesn’t matter that it lifted millions from poverty. We should always look for a better way.

nbgrout t1_j0nmats wrote on December 18, 2022 at 1:06 AM

If you want to take a really serious look at how free market economics has dramatically improved the lives of everyone since it's inception and adoption, I think you'll find you couldn't be more wrong.

Everyone, including regular people, are way better off than before free market economics, but rich people became outlandishly rich; you aren't mad at free market economics, you're mad at our ridiculous wealth inequality, they aren't the same thing.