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Sadalfas t1_j1ufidr wrote

Reply to comment by Nixeris in AI and education by lenhoi

Yes, the form of test would have to adapt. Instead of "write an essay that ...," it would be more like "which prompts can you use to resolve the problem(s) of...?"

Edit to clarify:

Got a few replies (and downvotes) that make me want to pull up and clarify here that I mean this in a way in which critical thinking and inventiveness is still front and center in the skills being taught, not a mechanical "process".

There will always be a need for a user/student to know how to get the data they want from whatever the modern tool is, and it will be a form of "prompt", even as that form evolves. Understanding the best way to use the modern tools was my point (as with the calculator analogy and math problems).

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WeeDingwall t1_j1ujilc wrote

I'm sorry but this is such a short sighted answer. Prompting will go away very soon as the ML gets better at interpretation.

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radicalceleryjuice t1_j1vdyow wrote

Won't prompting simply change? It will still be a garbage in, garbage out situation, no?

That said, I'd be very curious to see any resources about how they expect prompting to evolve. I'm hoping to stay on top of ML services as they evolve.

...but my understanding is that a good understanding of formal logic will help with getting good results, no matter how good the language interpretation becomes. So one of my plans is to put more time into my own formal logic skills. That said, one of the things that blows my mind about chatGPT is the way it will point out false premises in my prompts :)

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Sadalfas t1_j1vnp7h wrote

This is exactly my point. A user will still need to get the data they want from whatever the modern tool is, and it will be a form of "prompt", even as that form evolves. Understanding the best way to use the modern tools was my point (as with the calculator analogy).

It's about teaching the student critical thinking and inventiveness to reduce "garbage in" and increase "gold out".

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radicalceleryjuice t1_j1vqmwp wrote

Ok, totally agreed. The question is: how many teachers really have those skills themselves?

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Sadalfas t1_j1vt7w5 wrote

I think you might be on the right track to focus on formal logic for the most advanced use cases.

Even for the more general population (like in grade school level curricula) teaching effective communication by having the student ask the right questions/prompts, using the results to produce useful follow-up prompts, etc. are skills teachers already have and overlap with what a traditional essay accomplishes.

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Cognitive_Spoon t1_j1vvco9 wrote

I disagree with you being downvoted.

I'm on three separate degrees in pedagogy, and I think you make a fair construction of how it might be navigated. One of many ways, to be sure, but not an invalid one.

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Nixeris t1_j1ukqyr wrote

That doesn't actually accomplish any of the goals of education. The purpose is to mentally enrich the student, not teach them a process.

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Cognitive_Spoon t1_j1vvik1 wrote

That's goofy.

Logic is a process. Math is a process. Historical contextualization and extrapolation is a process.

Education is riddled with processes, because thinking is riddled with processes.

Students don't merely exist in school, they pursue.

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Nixeris t1_j1w0tmw wrote

You're just appending the word process to class titles and expecting it to disprove me on it's own. It doesn't.

You don't learn history because knowing the dates when things happened is really important, and you don't learn math because you're going to have to do equations when you're an adult. You learn those subjects because they affect how you learn and think about the world.

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Cognitive_Spoon t1_j1w3qgf wrote

You said words in your first paragraph, but they literally have no bearing on this conversation.

Your second paragraph is fine. History is processes, power dynamics, politics, policies and paternity tests.

Math is more than memorization.

It's process. Or rather "skill" education that matters.

You're not wrong, you are just disagreeing from a space of inexpertise.

Educational policy, pedagogy, and programming are my career.

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Nixeris t1_j1w8fkt wrote

You don't learn the process because knowing the process is the most important thing you take away from the course. You learn the process because it affects how you learn and interact with the world. You can, and many will, forget the substance of the course, but the longest lasting effect will be the method of learning.

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Cognitive_Spoon t1_j1w8vrn wrote

Are you an AI?

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Nixeris t1_j1wm2iv wrote

I've given examples, and you're just ignoring them to pretend I'm being absurd.

The process of writing a paper improves your reading comprehension, written communication skills, and critical thinking. However, you're not writing the paper to get better at the process of writing papers. You're writing it to practice those ancillary skills and show to the teacher that you can do it. It's those skills that are the purpose of writing the paper, not the process of writing a paper.

The paper isn't the point, it's the test to see if you've gotten the important parts of the lesson. No more than the ability to answer multiple choice questions is the point of math tests.

You aren't learning these things because they're the most important things to being an adult, but because in learning them you learn and practice ancillary skills that are important to being a functioning member of society.

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Cognitive_Spoon t1_j1wr821 wrote

There is no process without skills.

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Nixeris t1_j1z05jo wrote

Yes, but that's so basic a statement as to have no bearing on the conversation.

In this case the conversation is about how in education you often aren't doing the process with the end-goal of learning the process. You don't write a paper because the end goal is to teach you to write the best papers (aka, teaching a process to learn the process), you're doing it because it develops additional skills like critical thinking and communication (aka, teaching a process to learn a skill). The same way you don't run on a treadmill to get really good at running on treadmills.

In particular it's about which skills you're learning while doing the process.

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Sadalfas t1_j1vn8me wrote

I wasn't suggesting to "teach them a process", but more agreeing with what you had said on focusing on the goal of education.

I'm saying, understanding how to effectively use the modern tools available and having the critical thinking to reach the result you need is one possible evolution of straight essay-writing I see.

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