Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments

Raeandray t1_j1lstej wrote

Reply to comment by Surur in Is Solar Energy for Home Really Worth it in the US: Expert Answers by daleelsayarat-cars

The main issue isn’t labor costs, it’s exorbitant fees charged at multiple levels of the deal.

Typically in a solar deal you’ve got four people earning profit. The salesman, the dealer the salesman works for, the install company, and the lender. The salesman himself often earns $4-5k, and I’ve seen them earn $10k+, charging arguably unethical amounts to increase their own profit. The dealer earns 30% of whatever the salesman makes.

Then the install company, which obviously has significant costs they have to pay for (they’re usually the company paying all the labor for install, buying the equipment, spending time and money on permitting, site survey, paying an architect to review and approve panel arrangement, etc). They’ll add on about 30% for profit themselves.

Then the lender adds fees. Ever heard of .99% apr loans for solar? It happens because of ridiculous lender fees, usually around 40%.

So a system that costs maybe $15k total in all product plus permits plus labor becomes $25k for seller/dealer profit, $35k for installer profit, $50k after lender profit.

The whole industry is ridiculous right now.

220

jackdawson1049 t1_j1mkwbg wrote

You just described the whole construction industry.

58

Treesgivemewood t1_j1nchb2 wrote

Yah I mean, really nearly every industry. It’s not like the margin is all profit. There are plenty of costs to running a business.

10

jackdawson1049 t1_j1njcoq wrote

I was a general contractor in Florida. The costs for, insurance, continuing education, permits, etc ran me out of business.

17

Treesgivemewood t1_j1ofaqe wrote

Sure but that’s just the cost of doing business. We all deal with those expenses as contractors and the ones that thrive understand how to run a business….. which highlights why the original comment about how everyone is being scammed and anything above cost of raw materials is profit. That’s gross vs net.

5

jackdawson1049 t1_j1oji91 wrote

You are absolutely correct but that is why hiring a contractor is more expensive than doing it yourself.

5

Treesgivemewood t1_j1okqag wrote

Lol I just realized that somehow we are arguing while in complete agreement.

2

traker998 t1_j1lz9cv wrote

Came here to say exactly this work less words. The install cost is not the issue. The panel price is not the issue. It’s everything else added on.

57

Gordon_Explosion t1_j1n8gqa wrote

So if my uncle and I are seasoned contractors, and I do the research and buy all the material myself, I'd save 75% of a typical install doing it all myself? Aside from hiring an electrician to hook it into my house electrical system. I don't play with high voltage.

But same question. Do the research, buy the materials yourself, and save on the salesman/dealer/installer markups?

19

huenix t1_j1mvor3 wrote

THIS. Sheesh. We got quoted $45k for parts and $11k for labor and I laughed my ass off. Think I offended the sales weasel.

The top shelf panels he was pitching were $4800 plus $1500 for the inverter and interconnect. I stopped one of his installers and said my kid was looking for a job, what was the pay. $22 an hour.

18

AugustusClaximus t1_j1n10lw wrote

It’s amazing they can get away with these prices given how competitive the market is. I’ve had half a dozen door knockers hit me up in the last month, all claiming to have hung my neighbors panels. I let one walk me through the whole process to a $42k price tag and I just said nope!

At least for me I need Solar to pay for itself in 10 years, and I need to know that there’s a cheap way to replace these panels when they die in 25. Otherwise it’s best just to hang on to the grid

15

Awkward_moments t1_j1njqsk wrote

I thought the general consensus that they will not die in 25 years?

1

AugustusClaximus t1_j1nl3p8 wrote

I would need to talk to someone who’s owned their system for more than 25 years

10

t46p1g t1_j1nsnxk wrote

They lose their rated output after 25 supposedly, the problem with solar pv right now is that manufacturers might not be around that long as so many companies are pumping them out and the cards haven't fallen yet on who will still be in business in a couple decades.

The same thing happens in the lighting industry, cfls, LEDs, any hot technology has a bunch of manufacturers enter the industry and after a while most close their doors leaving the customer with a useless warranty

5

iceplusfire t1_j1m7w4n wrote

>Yes. Jumping on this. I was needing a part time job back in 2017. I was just a door knocker to get people interested and a more experienced seller would come back to make the sale. I made 10% of full price of the system just as the guy walking around handing out flyers and talking on doorsteps. Still hated it and only lasted a few months. Sales sucks and you dont get paid for weeks.

13

ninjewz t1_j1n85lv wrote

They can also get away with it because of the 30% tax credit plus it offsetting your existing electric bill so people see it as a net win even though they're way overpaying. With current rates, the financing isn't that enticing either if you don't do the dealer fees. On a 25 year loan my most recent install would cost over 100k if I didn't pay any extra towards the principal. My average utility bill would have to be $300/month more to break even after interest but then I also have to consider panel and inverter replacements by that time.

I'm at a crossroads because part of me wants to wait it out but then we've also seen costs go nuts on everything in a short time so I don't want to get left in the dust either.

8

Financial_Bicycle805 t1_j1ms91v wrote

It seems like this is prime for disruption. Surely some start up could come along and start offering it at half the cost of less by cutting out the middle men.

3

Raeandray t1_j1mxkcg wrote

So my wife works in the industry which is why I’m somewhat familiar with it. They’ve found lending companies willing to use a more traditional apr approach based on credit, but finding salesman is the hard part. Why would they take less with some new company when they can earn so much more with virtually any dealer?

3

OJwasJustified t1_j1n028i wrote

Why is a salesman necessary? Why can’t a website be built direct to consumer sales. Can’t wait till all car salesmen jobs are obsolete and I can order directly from GM.Com

8

inannaofthedarkness t1_j1p4ro5 wrote

Maybe give them some other incentive…stock? benefits? amazing PTO? free childcare?

1

Willwrestle4food t1_j1nuxx1 wrote

I ran into this. Illinois has a renewable energy credit system. Unfortunately to qualify for it you have to have your system installed by a certified installer. Those installers wanted way more than I'd ever get back in renewable credits. I installed 8kw on my roof myself. Took me three six hour working days. A ton of time planning and learning but I like these projects so that was recreational really. I bought everything I needed on sale online and had it shipped right to my door. The whole system with permits, inspections, and materials cost me about $12k before the tax rebates. If I had paid some to install the same system installed it would've cost me $25k+.

3

imnotsoho t1_j1pg5v8 wrote

Did you have to have a licensed electrician sign off to get the federal tax credit?

1

Willwrestle4food t1_j1pte4e wrote

I did not, however my electric co-op had one of their engineers review my line drawing and build list as well as an in person inspection prior to connecting me to their grid.

2

Veretax t1_j1nxv1s wrote

Not only that but remember that every jurisdiction has rules about setbacks and things on the roofs and some insurance companies won't insure your house if it's not put in by a licensed contract at least not the system

3

duubz_ t1_j1mrxdf wrote

The first sentence says it all

2

Muzzy637 t1_j1p25zl wrote

Let me trade my $100 electric bill for a $40 hookup bill plus $400/month financing the panels which will be obsolete by the time its paid off in an area that gets plenty of cloud cover in the winter.

Made absolutely no sense, and the sales guy would not shut up about how I’m just throwing my money away.

1

Farkasok t1_j1n00gg wrote

What would a viable alternative be? You can’t just remove one of those roles and still expect the process to work. While you may view the salesman as a useless addition to the project, who are people going to buy solar from? It’s a necessary role and while I agree with most of your points, that’s just the nature of buying anything that costs $5,000+. You’ll encounter the exact same thing buying grills, cars, houses, RVs, etc.

−1

deadmancrafting t1_j1n5nmi wrote

Kill commissions for salesman, have them work for a flat rate.

Put full information in publicly available source (e.g. internet)

9