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Surur t1_j1lmbvx wrote

So the average American install is 20-25 panels, and the average cost for a new 300w panel is say $200, which means the main hardware cost is around $4000-5000. Add another $1000 for an inverter.

Yet we keep hearing a typical install is $50,000 and the pay-off period 20-30 years because of that.

It sounds to me like the main issue is labour costs, which is why I think self-install or low-skill install should become a thing.

You can already buy plug and play kits, and you can now get adhesive mounting kits which means there is no risk of leaks and no roof penetration.

It seems no matter how cheap the panels become, the cost of install which seems to be nearly 10x more than the hardware, is going to hold solar back.

If the cost of labour can be reduced by a lot in USA solar would immediately become a lot more viable and attractive.

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Raeandray t1_j1lstej wrote

The main issue isn’t labor costs, it’s exorbitant fees charged at multiple levels of the deal.

Typically in a solar deal you’ve got four people earning profit. The salesman, the dealer the salesman works for, the install company, and the lender. The salesman himself often earns $4-5k, and I’ve seen them earn $10k+, charging arguably unethical amounts to increase their own profit. The dealer earns 30% of whatever the salesman makes.

Then the install company, which obviously has significant costs they have to pay for (they’re usually the company paying all the labor for install, buying the equipment, spending time and money on permitting, site survey, paying an architect to review and approve panel arrangement, etc). They’ll add on about 30% for profit themselves.

Then the lender adds fees. Ever heard of .99% apr loans for solar? It happens because of ridiculous lender fees, usually around 40%.

So a system that costs maybe $15k total in all product plus permits plus labor becomes $25k for seller/dealer profit, $35k for installer profit, $50k after lender profit.

The whole industry is ridiculous right now.

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jackdawson1049 t1_j1mkwbg wrote

You just described the whole construction industry.

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Treesgivemewood t1_j1nchb2 wrote

Yah I mean, really nearly every industry. It’s not like the margin is all profit. There are plenty of costs to running a business.

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jackdawson1049 t1_j1njcoq wrote

I was a general contractor in Florida. The costs for, insurance, continuing education, permits, etc ran me out of business.

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Treesgivemewood t1_j1ofaqe wrote

Sure but that’s just the cost of doing business. We all deal with those expenses as contractors and the ones that thrive understand how to run a business….. which highlights why the original comment about how everyone is being scammed and anything above cost of raw materials is profit. That’s gross vs net.

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jackdawson1049 t1_j1oji91 wrote

You are absolutely correct but that is why hiring a contractor is more expensive than doing it yourself.

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Treesgivemewood t1_j1okqag wrote

Lol I just realized that somehow we are arguing while in complete agreement.

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traker998 t1_j1lz9cv wrote

Came here to say exactly this work less words. The install cost is not the issue. The panel price is not the issue. It’s everything else added on.

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Gordon_Explosion t1_j1n8gqa wrote

So if my uncle and I are seasoned contractors, and I do the research and buy all the material myself, I'd save 75% of a typical install doing it all myself? Aside from hiring an electrician to hook it into my house electrical system. I don't play with high voltage.

But same question. Do the research, buy the materials yourself, and save on the salesman/dealer/installer markups?

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huenix t1_j1mvor3 wrote

THIS. Sheesh. We got quoted $45k for parts and $11k for labor and I laughed my ass off. Think I offended the sales weasel.

The top shelf panels he was pitching were $4800 plus $1500 for the inverter and interconnect. I stopped one of his installers and said my kid was looking for a job, what was the pay. $22 an hour.

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AugustusClaximus t1_j1n10lw wrote

It’s amazing they can get away with these prices given how competitive the market is. I’ve had half a dozen door knockers hit me up in the last month, all claiming to have hung my neighbors panels. I let one walk me through the whole process to a $42k price tag and I just said nope!

At least for me I need Solar to pay for itself in 10 years, and I need to know that there’s a cheap way to replace these panels when they die in 25. Otherwise it’s best just to hang on to the grid

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Awkward_moments t1_j1njqsk wrote

I thought the general consensus that they will not die in 25 years?

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AugustusClaximus t1_j1nl3p8 wrote

I would need to talk to someone who’s owned their system for more than 25 years

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t46p1g t1_j1nsnxk wrote

They lose their rated output after 25 supposedly, the problem with solar pv right now is that manufacturers might not be around that long as so many companies are pumping them out and the cards haven't fallen yet on who will still be in business in a couple decades.

The same thing happens in the lighting industry, cfls, LEDs, any hot technology has a bunch of manufacturers enter the industry and after a while most close their doors leaving the customer with a useless warranty

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iceplusfire t1_j1m7w4n wrote

>Yes. Jumping on this. I was needing a part time job back in 2017. I was just a door knocker to get people interested and a more experienced seller would come back to make the sale. I made 10% of full price of the system just as the guy walking around handing out flyers and talking on doorsteps. Still hated it and only lasted a few months. Sales sucks and you dont get paid for weeks.

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ninjewz t1_j1n85lv wrote

They can also get away with it because of the 30% tax credit plus it offsetting your existing electric bill so people see it as a net win even though they're way overpaying. With current rates, the financing isn't that enticing either if you don't do the dealer fees. On a 25 year loan my most recent install would cost over 100k if I didn't pay any extra towards the principal. My average utility bill would have to be $300/month more to break even after interest but then I also have to consider panel and inverter replacements by that time.

I'm at a crossroads because part of me wants to wait it out but then we've also seen costs go nuts on everything in a short time so I don't want to get left in the dust either.

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Financial_Bicycle805 t1_j1ms91v wrote

It seems like this is prime for disruption. Surely some start up could come along and start offering it at half the cost of less by cutting out the middle men.

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Raeandray t1_j1mxkcg wrote

So my wife works in the industry which is why I’m somewhat familiar with it. They’ve found lending companies willing to use a more traditional apr approach based on credit, but finding salesman is the hard part. Why would they take less with some new company when they can earn so much more with virtually any dealer?

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OJwasJustified t1_j1n028i wrote

Why is a salesman necessary? Why can’t a website be built direct to consumer sales. Can’t wait till all car salesmen jobs are obsolete and I can order directly from GM.Com

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inannaofthedarkness t1_j1p4ro5 wrote

Maybe give them some other incentive…stock? benefits? amazing PTO? free childcare?

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Willwrestle4food t1_j1nuxx1 wrote

I ran into this. Illinois has a renewable energy credit system. Unfortunately to qualify for it you have to have your system installed by a certified installer. Those installers wanted way more than I'd ever get back in renewable credits. I installed 8kw on my roof myself. Took me three six hour working days. A ton of time planning and learning but I like these projects so that was recreational really. I bought everything I needed on sale online and had it shipped right to my door. The whole system with permits, inspections, and materials cost me about $12k before the tax rebates. If I had paid some to install the same system installed it would've cost me $25k+.

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imnotsoho t1_j1pg5v8 wrote

Did you have to have a licensed electrician sign off to get the federal tax credit?

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Willwrestle4food t1_j1pte4e wrote

I did not, however my electric co-op had one of their engineers review my line drawing and build list as well as an in person inspection prior to connecting me to their grid.

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Veretax t1_j1nxv1s wrote

Not only that but remember that every jurisdiction has rules about setbacks and things on the roofs and some insurance companies won't insure your house if it's not put in by a licensed contract at least not the system

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duubz_ t1_j1mrxdf wrote

The first sentence says it all

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Muzzy637 t1_j1p25zl wrote

Let me trade my $100 electric bill for a $40 hookup bill plus $400/month financing the panels which will be obsolete by the time its paid off in an area that gets plenty of cloud cover in the winter.

Made absolutely no sense, and the sales guy would not shut up about how I’m just throwing my money away.

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Farkasok t1_j1n00gg wrote

What would a viable alternative be? You can’t just remove one of those roles and still expect the process to work. While you may view the salesman as a useless addition to the project, who are people going to buy solar from? It’s a necessary role and while I agree with most of your points, that’s just the nature of buying anything that costs $5,000+. You’ll encounter the exact same thing buying grills, cars, houses, RVs, etc.

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deadmancrafting t1_j1n5nmi wrote

Kill commissions for salesman, have them work for a flat rate.

Put full information in publicly available source (e.g. internet)

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theonetrueelhigh t1_j1lpi95 wrote

Facts. I keep seeing the final cost while knowing what the hardware costs, clearly you're paying for a lot of expensive professionals.

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Hisaidky t1_j1maasd wrote

I work for a non-profit that uses volunteer labor for install. I’m a project lead that manages relations with client, contract design permit scheduling, and then day of install (2 days for anything 24 panels and fewer) I meet 2-3 volunteers on site and answer their questions as we slowly slap the glass

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Surur t1_j1mdvrl wrote

How much does a typical install cost with volunteer labour then?

Imagine a green activist volunteer movement which goes around installing solar for 1/10th the cost it usually takes, teaching other volunteers along the way, and rapidly saving the world.

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Hisaidky t1_j1mkzgb wrote

Labor is $1.05 / Watt

Ten 400W panels for $4,200

Panels at about $300 per

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dlewis23 t1_j1mymur wrote

If we stop the financing garbage the cost gets a lot lower. I had a 5kw system installed 6 months ago. Cost $13000 before the tax credit. It covers 80% of my bill. My utility has a $25 minimum charge so there is no point in 100% coverage.

Most people need to look at reducing there electric load. First. They are building a system for electric usage that could be reduced in many ways.

Then you have finance which from what I see looking at r/Solar a lot basically doubles the cost.

Save up, get a loan from a credit union or start with a much smaller system and add on to it a few years later. Just avoid a PPA or solar loan. They are not in your favor you are trading one bill for another.

The best advice. Stay away from door knockers.

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Mecha-Dave t1_j1m6ilt wrote

I would actually have to build a roof on top of my roof, about $15k, because I have fancy Spanish metal tiles which currently have 20 years remaining on their warranty (out of 50). The new roof would be plywood with a 5 year warranty.

Alternatively I could replace my whole roof with compatible tiles for $45k.... Or I could wait 5-10 years for solar shingles to make more sense.

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MalHierba t1_j1mvkf1 wrote

The market is an absolute shit show. There is no proper regulation and while monopolies can be taken advantage of and be terrible for society, some things like energy operate most efficiently as monopolies and might even be called a natural monopoly. Now I think natural monopolies should be nationalized and protected from corruption but that’s a different convo. The solar industry is millions of little marketing firms, dealing with dozens to hundreds of installers in each state. It’s a shit show and inefficient and there are a bunch of dumb salesmen who don’t even know their products very well who are just making a killing and rarely creating the ideal system and financing for their clients. There are also a lot of tariffs.

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einstruzende t1_j1m58qg wrote

I just had a hybrid 31 panel install, it was 42k. Hybrid because HOA wouldn't let any panels on front or rear of house, so we have a set in back of yard and sets on each end of house. Lots of people involved, i know it's mostly labor and profit.

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ten-million t1_j1mp1l3 wrote

As someone who has done this, it doesn’t cost $50k. My 20 300w panel system cost $18,600 before rebates. $3/watt was typical a few years ago.

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gizmosticles t1_j1no9c7 wrote

Totally. Just to say that we had a bunch of quotes in the 35-50k range, only to have Tesla direct quote us 18k all in.

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juxtoppose t1_j1mh1d5 wrote

Most of it you can do yourself, I hadn’t seen it done before I got it installed but when I uprate the system I’ll be doing it myself. If you install yourself and going by the current price of electric you can pay off the system in two years easy.

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-Tesserex- t1_j1n5xqu wrote

I got a 30 panel system this year, 13.4 kW, for about $3 per watt, maybe it was a tiny bit less. Not cheap, but could be a lot worse. Don't go with big companies that advertise. The gross cost for me was under $40k, but after 26% tax credit, and the sale of SRECs for around 11k, my net cost was about $16.5k. Not cheap of course, but my payoff is 6-8 years which isn't bad at all.

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throwawayacc201711 t1_j1mhdpj wrote

Regardless of that, there are quite generous subsidies going on from the federal government (when I did solar it was 30%) and then my state gave me another 5k.

My system is a 6.9kW system and this covers 100% of my electric usage. My out of pocket cost was about 12-15k, 65% was subsidized (that makes my totally system cost roughly 20-23k).

Each year of solar saves me about 2k a year. So my break even is between 6-7 years.

If you’re young and plan on living in your house for the long haul, it makes absolutely no sense to not get solar. Living in a state that actually gives a fuck about climate change helps since they typically have subsidies.

The other part not being mentioned is that the panels are getting more efficient so that you don’t need as many panels

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Vicariouslysuffering t1_j1nv1od wrote

In my area there is an additional factor....... you have to get approval from the power company before you can get any solar installed. They calculate your usage and wont let you install something bigger than your consumption........ All while charging people more for a "green energy " option that you cannot prove you are getting green energy from.

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Zippytiewassabi t1_j1opuj6 wrote

The article doesn’t mention location with the exception of a FAQ which asks if it’s worth it to do in Florida. To your point, for someone like me in Michigan, the entry cost would need to be very cheap for me to get in, whereas in a place like Arizona, the ROI would be much quicker.

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daleelsayarat-cars OP t1_j1lp8ns wrote

Yes 100% right, but how this can be achieved in the next 10 or 20 months?

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dejus t1_j1nkdcb wrote

Here’s my idea. For every home sale/purchase, include solar and bundle the costs into the mortgage. Also $50k is much higher than what I’ve heard from people. I’ve heard ranges closer to 15-25k.

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Stalegoldfish96 t1_j1mvha9 wrote

Unskilled, low-paying workers are already installing solar on homes in America and the dominate that market…

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icebeat t1_j1mo272 wrote

DIY is not going to happen, at least in my state where if you are not licensed you are not allowed to change even a light bulb in your house

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HexicPyth t1_j1mzof3 wrote

What? How exactly do you propose they enforce that?

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DragonflySharp3811 t1_j1oleh8 wrote

Permits. You have to have one to start the project, get the county and utilities to agree to it with proper plans, THEN you have to install according to plans including following all fire codes and electrical standards for your county, state, and federal. After that you have to get it inspected and approved by that utility and county. I’ve been doing these projects for 5 years now. Most of the DIY stuff is almost always against code and ready to be shut down at any minute if anything else happens and requires a city inspector at the home. Not to mention that if you do anything to cause problems with your roof, electrical, or water because of your DIY you don’t have any warranty to cover it. Sorry but all these small cost explanations are avoiding the reality just focusing on price. Good luck especially if you actually know what you are doing versus majority of people on this thread. Not everyone builds their own cars even though they can technically do it all themselves. There’s a reason why that is.

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