Submission statement:

Normally we talk about the future as decades from now, but this is happening within the next five years and they'll be hydrogen fuel cell locomotives in commercial service by the end of next year, with mass production planned for 2024 and deliveries by 2025 and 2026. All three west coast railroads are considering some level of hydrogen adoption, as it uses components and methods similar to compressed gases they already have tools and labor for. All of them are already adopting battery-electric locomotives for use as battery tenders with diesels. Both North American railroad equipment mfgs are planning extensive BEV and H2 cell lineups over the next 36 months. The future is fast approaching.

This will have significant impacts, besides lower emissions it means leader (smaller) machine shops and a much greater scalability for hydrogen industrial equipment (forklifts, front loaders, excavators, etc) and hydrogen semi trucks. The Tesla Semi also happens next year, which will be the banner year for de-icing commercial freight logistics. It's no longer an if.

The article itself, reposted:

>NEW YORK — Canadian Pacific’s experimental hydrogen-powered locomotive made its maiden revenue run last month in Calgary, Alberta, taking the first step in determining whether the technology could one day replace diesel-electric locomotives. “I’ll tell you, the excitement around it, the potential of it, is real,” CEO Keith Creel told the RailTrends conference on Tuesday. “And to see it two weeks ago, running down the main line at main line speed pulling a load behind it, I mean it made the hairs on my arm stand up because I would have told you two years ago it’s a pipe dream … Well, it’s not a pipe dream. It’s a reality. Still a lot of work left to do, but it’s super, super exciting.”

>The home-built unit, converted SD40-2F No. 1001, is dubbed H2 0EL for “hydrogen zero-emissions locomotive.” The Oct. 28 revenue test run was the second main line foray this year for the unit, which uses hydrogen fuel cells and batteries to power its electric traction motors. CP is using solar power to produce hydrogen at its Calgary headquarters. It also has a separate hydrogen production facility in Edmonton. CP is partnering with the Alberta provincial government to build a DC-traction version as well as another AC-traction unit. By the end of next year, CP expects to have the three locomotives switching customers in Calgary, Edmonton, and Vancouver, Creel says.

>“The next step is scalability,” Creel says, through partnering with a customer that can build enough road locomotives to prove the technology on the rugged CP main line in the Canadian Rockies west of Calgary. “It’s the perfect test bed. If you can operate there — heavy haul, cold temperatures, the most challenging operational conditions I’ve ever experienced in my career … it will work anywhere,” Creel says. If the tests are successful, hydrogen fuel-cell locomotives are likely to first be deployed in local service until the railway can create a hydrogen fueling network across its system and build the tenders necessary to give the locomotives extended range.

>“I’m telling you this has the potential, if it proves its mettle and it shakes out in the very tough validation tests we’ll give it, it will be truly transformational for this industry,” Creel says. “And it’s something we’re extremely proud of.” Creel emphasized that the hydrogen project is very much an experiment and CP is not betting the farm on its effort to create a green locomotive. Alberta is aiming to transition to a hydrogen-based economy as part of a push toward cleaner energy supplies. CP would haul hydrogen from Alberta to customers across its system, as well as to its own fueling facilities.

>All of the Class I railroads have announced ambitious goals to reduce their carbon emissions as part of an effort to combat climate change. Wabtec and Progress Rail are offering battery-electric hybrid locomotives and are experimenting with higher blends of biodiesel and renewable diesel to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. BNSF Railway tested Wabtec’s battery electric locomotive as part of a hybrid consist that powered merchandise trains between Stockton and Barstow, Calif., last year. Union Pacific has ordered 20 battery electric locomotives — 10 from each builder — for use in tests at two yards. Creel spoke at the RailTrends 2022 conference sponsored by trade publication Progressive Railroading and independent analyst Anthony B. Hatch.

> CEO Keith Creel

I'm gonna use this guy's name as the protagonist for my 80's style karate revenge movie. In one of the fight scenes, Keith Creel crane-kicks a dude's head clean off.

The following submission statement was provided by /u/bitfriend6:

Submission statement:

Normally we talk about the future as decades from now, but this is happening within the next five years and they'll be hydrogen fuel cell locomotives in commercial service by the end of next year, with mass production planned for 2024 and deliveries by 2025 and 2026. All three west coast railroads are considering some level of hydrogen adoption, as it uses components and methods similar to compressed gases they already have tools and labor for. All of them are already adopting battery-electric locomotives for use as battery tenders with diesels. Both North American railroad equipment mfgs are planning extensive BEV and H2 cell lineups over the next 36 months. The future is fast approaching.

This will have significant impacts, besides lower emissions it means leader (smaller) machine shops and a much greater scalability for hydrogen industrial equipment (forklifts, front loaders, excavators, etc) and hydrogen semi trucks. The Tesla Semi also happens next year, which will be the banner year for de-icing commercial freight logistics. It's no longer an if.

The article itself, reposted:

>NEW YORK — Canadian Pacific’s experimental hydrogen-powered locomotive made its maiden revenue run last month in Calgary, Alberta, taking the first step in determining whether the technology could one day replace diesel-electric locomotives. “I’ll tell you, the excitement around it, the potential of it, is real,” CEO Keith Creel told the RailTrends conference on Tuesday. “And to see it two weeks ago, running down the main line at main line speed pulling a load behind it, I mean it made the hairs on my arm stand up because I would have told you two years ago it’s a pipe dream … Well, it’s not a pipe dream. It’s a reality. Still a lot of work left to do, but it’s super, super exciting.”

>The home-built unit, converted SD40-2F No. 1001, is dubbed H2 0EL for “hydrogen zero-emissions locomotive.” The Oct. 28 revenue test run was the second main line foray this year for the unit, which uses hydrogen fuel cells and batteries to power its electric traction motors. CP is using solar power to produce hydrogen at its Calgary headquarters. It also has a separate hydrogen production facility in Edmonton. CP is partnering with the Alberta provincial government to build a DC-traction version as well as another AC-traction unit. By the end of next year, CP expects to have the three locomotives switching customers in Calgary, Edmonton, and Vancouver, Creel says.

>“The next step is scalability,” Creel says, through partnering with a customer that can build enough road locomotives to prove the technology on the rugged CP main line in the Canadian Rockies west of Calgary. “It’s the perfect test bed. If you can operate there — heavy haul, cold temperatures, the most challenging operational conditions I’ve ever experienced in my career … it will work anywhere,” Creel says. If the tests are successful, hydrogen fuel-cell locomotives are likely to first be deployed in local service until the railway can create a hydrogen fueling network across its system and build the tenders necessary to give the locomotives extended range.

>“I’m telling you this has the potential, if it proves its mettle and it shakes out in the very tough validation tests we’ll give it, it will be truly transformational for this industry,” Creel says. “And it’s something we’re extremely proud of.” Creel emphasized that the hydrogen project is very much an experiment and CP is not betting the farm on its effort to create a green locomotive. Alberta is aiming to transition to a hydrogen-based economy as part of a push toward cleaner energy supplies. CP would haul hydrogen from Alberta to customers across its system, as well as to its own fueling facilities.

>All of the Class I railroads have announced ambitious goals to reduce their carbon emissions as part of an effort to combat climate change. Wabtec and Progress Rail are offering battery-electric hybrid locomotives and are experimenting with higher blends of biodiesel and renewable diesel to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. BNSF Railway tested Wabtec’s battery electric locomotive as part of a hybrid consist that powered merchandise trains between Stockton and Barstow, Calif., last year. Union Pacific has ordered 20 battery electric locomotives — 10 from each builder — for use in tests at two yards. Creel spoke at the RailTrends 2022 conference sponsored by trade publication Progressive Railroading and independent analyst Anthony B. Hatch.

Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/z0tkuf/canadian_pacifics_hydrogenpowered_locomotive/ix7d1fu/

Germany has already replaced a nice chunk of trains with these, I was wondering why I didn't hear others do it yet, neat!

...but why?

Electrified rail has existed for over a century, what's the point of this?

The most expensive and trash fuel on the planet.

Considering production cost and efficiency, even "green H2" is absolute trash because of weight and volume of tanks to store it. And no... there are no amazing hidrogen cells solving this.

Just another astrology/futurology post.

yt watch?v=LoaeE4YyYls

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but our province (Alberta) has a hydrogen strategy which includes trucks and trains. Hydrogen is a byproduct of natural gas - of which we have plenty here - and as the world moves away from O&G, we need to keep our industry up and the money rolling in.

I don't know who funded this particular locomotive, but it would not surprise me in the least to find out there was some sort of provincial incentives behind this.

Not that I believe this is wrong in the least, I'm interested to see how this all works out as we go forward.

Cost. If you've got long rail lines that see one train a day or even month, the cost to electrify that line is huge. Way easier and cheaper to send a hydrogen engine.

You are right, but it still is a fuel. Not everything can be run with batteries and extension cords, at least not right now.

All of this is accurate. The province is keeping a transition from oil and gas to electric in mind. The early plan is use grey or blue hydrogen, so by products of natural gas production. It doesn't reduce green house gasses beyond encouraging less flaring.

The plan is have it in place as they start more renewable gas collection (harvesting from garbage/animal waste) which is also heavily subsidized from both a natural gas and agriculture standpoint.

All of this with hope that green hydrogen becomes cheaper in the next 20 years.

...trying to electrify a majority of the existing rail lines here in the US would be too much of a headache to be honest...

and also never will. electron transportation characteristics dont allow that.

a bullshit future being promissed that goes against physics.

And hydrogen is worse for the environment even compared to Natural Gas when the whole chain of production/extraction+ transportation is considered.

hydrogen is trash.

Huh, I thought hydrogen required ridiculous amounts of energy to extract, didn't know it could also be obtained as a byproduct

So how do you suggest one powers a train on tracks where electrification is both expensive and unfeasible?

So sorry for being ignorant, I only had two years of physics at university.... but what exactly goes against physics?

In my home country, we're expanding renewable energy generation to a point where we have excess energy in Summer to ensure we have enough in Winter. With that, we'll need an energy dump to keep the nets stable, and preferably one that allows us to store energy for other purposes down the road.

While the efficiency of Hydrogen generation from electricity isn't great, it's better than nothing and can be used as a precurser for artificial fuels.

I agree with you that whatever can be powered by electricity directly should be powered directly, but for stuff that cant, hydrogen and derivates are the next best thing we have.

Please correct me if im wrong. I probably am…. But how is hydrogen a renewable source? Is it not made from water? Are we not, as citizens, supposed to curb our water use as it is NOT a renewable resource?!!

Sorry I can't find the specific video from Thuderfoot explaining the problem of storing an electron energy level and then being able to release it.

The "why's" on Lithium usage (sometimes some other happy to have electrons metals, but lithium is king).

The "why's" on battery tech is stopping to get better and graphs with the theoretical limits.

Even with bullshit materials as a superconductor blah blah, carbon nanotubes blah blah. Lithium will still be there to be able to "store" those electrons/energy levels for you.

Battery tech will not evole much more. Few % only.

And never forget. ONE SINGLE TESLA Y BATTERY needs 250 tons of mined soil to be produced.

Simple maths around the usage and price of lithium makes this whole play bullshit. If this becomes a reality, lithium needs to drop pure from the sky or the price will become unreal.

There is only way to decarbonize without destroying the planet mining or killing more humans (a.k.a keeping the poor poor). Nuclear energy. Nuclear energy is THE ONLY WAY.

It's physics. It's math. Just stop and do the math. How many solar panels are needed? At what distance? At what capacity of operation? Considering wheather? Considering mining? Considering storage for all of that energy? Do that math for some reasonable ammount of joules of energy for Hydrogen.

Wind/Solar DO NOT ALLOW for a clean hidrogen to exist. THEY JUST DON'T.

Wanna a Hydrogen economy? Just don't do it and go for a synth-Ammonia economy and nuclear.

If you still wanna the hidrogen... go for nuclear at least so your hidrogen can be truly considered "green hidrogen", not the lies told today of what is green.

PHYSICS/MATH impedes this planet going foward with this bullshit... but no problem... let's just wait and hope I am wrong. As much as Thunderfoot and so many other scientists that don't really care about the status quo. Just plain math/physics.

Okay, you're mixing up quite a few things here.

a) None of that explaines why hydrogen is trash

b) even if Lithium will stay the "best" type of battery, for grid storage where space is less of an issue other battery types will come online that are way cheaper and have less enviromental impact. We already have some. (Iron air, Redux flow,...)

c) You are also mixing up energy generation and energy storage. You can't put a nuclear reactor in a motorbike. Also, we won't have enough nuclear fuel, and it's not exactly clean to mine either if we use nuclear for everything.

d) what do you thing Ammonia is? NH3. You want Ammoniak, you need hydrogen first.

e) one important goal has to be to use less energy, so hopefully we'll need less renewables that one would think. We already had summers with negative energy prices in Europe, with more and more Solar panels & wind turbines being installed, thats going to happen more and more.

​

please please watch less youtube videos.

It's also a by-product of gas production. If hydrogen is produced from seawater using renewable electricity then it could be considered renewable.

I just hope one of these never has a high speed crash.

Hydrogen fuel is BS propaganda pushed by the oil industry.

a) the podcast has all the data, and also the efficiency data. hidrogen is trash. what canada is doing is ABSURD. it's going to fake produce clean hidrogen and export it (in things that dont exist, not even in 5 years... the ships to transport and the HUGE plants to do electrolization).

canada has no energy to spare and is going to produce "green hidrogen" to export and balance the internal grid by burning more gas.

b) iron phospate uses lithum. no pure iron battery.

c) nuclear + synth ammonia. ammonia is the "battery"

d) the process to make ammonia is VERY different from hidrogen, no electrolisys, better eficiency.

e) how do you consume less energy by making hidrogen? a SUPER inneficient process? and transport it, also ABSURDELY low efficiency because of the size of the tanks necessary (liquifing hidrogen ridiculously inneficient)? and build all it's infrasctructure if the efficiency of doing so and carbon being produced is super high?

please watch the podcast.

start having better classes.

>> 20 years

Yeah, we’re not lasting that long given the current rate of warming.

>> Fuck the environment, long live the economy!!

Thanks for the reply! So….. seawater is a renewable resource?

Good luck using up all the sea water.

Dude...sorry to be so blunt, but you have no clue what you are talking about. If the podcast is as good as you claim (which is possible because I kind of see the points it's trying to make) you didn't really understand it.

Please, as a absolutely bare minimum go on Wikipedia and read up on ammonia synthesis.

While you are there, you can also look up the composition of iron-air battery.

I’m genuinely interested, can you elaborate or provide a link or something?

https://www.sierraclub.org/articles/2022/01/hydrogen-future-clean-energy-or-false-solution

https://insideclimatenews.org/news/06112022/oil-companies-hydrogen-production/

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/climate/hydrogen-fuel-natural-gas-pollution.amp.html

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/02/24/hydrogen-is-big-oils-last-grand-scam/amp/

https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2021/may/06/hydrogen-fuel-risks-reliance-on-fossil-fuels

https://www.wsj.com/articles/big-oil-companies-push-hydrogen-as-green-alternative-but-obstacles-remain-11627297201

You are very dumb.

Please go item by item again there and counter them.

"Iron phosphate batteries"

"Burn fossil fuels to make electrolisis, to have hidrogen, to cool down, put on a ship to Germany to be burned again". 3 steps with more then 50% loss in efficiency.

The stupidity of you on your "2nd year" of college in physics is crazy bad.

Defending ABSOLUTELY CLEAR trash in r/futurology... LOL

How many posts here are absolute lies? 99%?

If being used to produce hydrogen/oxygen which will be used to run internal combustion engines or fuel cells (both react the hydrogen back with oxygen, producing water as a result), then yes.

To be fair, hydrogen can also be produced from natural gas (95% of it in the US) which is not renewable. But from seawater and solar panels, heck yes, it's renewable and seawater will never run out.

Its still a finite resource. Just like oil and gas. Lots of it….

You introduced iron phosphate. I was always talking about Iron air.

You introduced burning fossil fuels. I was always talking about using excess renewables.

Oh... And I had 2 years physics as part of my bachelor& masters in aerospace engineering.

I am out of this discussion.

Dumb kid. Poor kid can't do math.

This whole post is dismounted on just calculating the efficiency of producing Hydrogen, at an AMAZING 50% efficiency in a machine that never breaks, using amazing Natural Gas to feed such machine since Canada is not deploying more nuclear, just faking some investments in modular reactors. SO IT IS NAT GAS FEEDING THIS SYSTEM.

SIMPLE. MATH. Canada is going to burn natural gas, at low efficiency, to transform into electricity, put into de grid, somewhere that is going to be used at an electrolosis plant, producing Hydrogn... and needs A LOT of energy to cool it down to transport it. And then you burn that amazing H2 into the most perfect 50% efficiency engine... look at the amount of steps that you are losing a LOT of that energy. It's a machine that does not work.

Believing in such thing, doing the SIMPLE MATH of efficiency drop, even removing tons of steps and pretending the world is magical, this will make more CO2 then help in anything.

Iron Air. Sure... Salt batteries also, right? Fusion energy maybe? Tech that DOES NOT EXIST... thanks a lot. Super argument. Amazing discussion.

Promisses of the future. Go r/Futurology

You are very dense. You never discussed anything. Bye bye. Amazing 'discussion'. I hope you remember this in 5 years when Canada launches this amazing project.

Maybe you should watch more podcasts... just not JoeRogan... maybe you should frequent r/science and r/Futurology less and have more physics classes.

We will run out of fresh water long before we would run out of sea water. Plus the ice caps are adding to the sea water daily.